The Art of Living Without Stress: Ancient Wisdom for a Calmer Mind | Andrew Keaveney

Hello friends and a very warm welcome to Press Prince with Dr Ash. Are you ready to address your content? Now Dr Ash is working across three continents. India, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Including the boiling frog to help you manage your stress, find balance, and live a life of purpose. Please join us every Friday at 5 p.m. And let's start turning stress into strength together. Now let's start into today's episode.

Hello, friends. We have been speaking about the chronic stress with which we are living in today's society, the boiling frog phenomena. What if I start with a question today? What if the key to managing the pressures of modern life could be found in the wisdom of thousands of years old? My guest today is Andrew Kivney from North Carolina in the United States, whose journey has taken him from the Stanford University to the Art of Living Center in Bangalore, South India, and into dedicating his life to the study of meditation, to the study of yoga and consciousness. Andrew graduated with honors from Stanford doing Buddhist studies, and then he immersed himself in service, meditation, learning a new language, which is Sanskrit, which I always found it extremely, extremely difficult. So his quest, his quest for spirituality has really inspired me. And today in this session, we are going to talk about how meditation, how the deeper philosophy of yoga can help us navigate the chronic stress in the society, the distraction epidemic, and what it really means to cultivate a greater awareness and inner peace. Please help me welcome Andrew Kivney.

Hello, and Dr Ash.

So lovely to have you, Andrew, and I have found your journey inspiring from the Silicon Valley Stanford campus, which where I spend a lot of time going there because I have family in the Bay Area in the Silicon Valley, so it's been my second home. And from there, then to go to my other home in India to Bangalore. So I'm curious about what was the inner quest. What were the what was the trigger that took you on that journey?

We study so many things in school. We study math, we study geography. One thing I found that I wasn't learning was really about my own mind. And yes, you know, there's studies in psychology, and that field is growing. But then I discovered there's so much wisdom in this ancient tradition of meditation and yoga and these practices that not only describe what the mind is, how it works, but also ways to cultivate more inner peace, more joy, more of a sense of life, you know, in our living. And I got enough of a hint to know this was something amazing. I did an art of living course at the end of college, and a friend invited me to India for a silent retreat. And I said, okay, if not now, then when am I going to do this? So I left at the chance and went to India for some time and then just stayed to research and go more deeply into these traditions and this life.

But generally, I see that for that level of quest for somebody to go to a new culture, new country, also you learning a new language, Sanskrit, there has to be some kind of a burning fire and an inspiration. So was there anything which spurred you in that direction, or was it just curiosity, or was it just life?

It was a mix of things. One reason people get into spirituality or searching for something greater is sometimes there may be some we've all experienced some suffering in life, and people find that when you do some of these practices, that diminishes. The intensity of that diminishes, and also just the focus on it, right? We see the bigger picture. Then the other thing is that I found doing these practices, something opened up within, right? I saw that, okay, there's more to this life than the day-to-day routine, and there's this element within ourselves that's so vast, so expansive, and we can tap into that, we can connect with that through these practices. That was like a discovery. And so that really prompted me to go deeper and like you said, take the voyage across the oceans and make the trip to India.

Tell me about that. tell me about that trip and your time in India.

India was fascinating. It's such a rich culture, there's so much variety regionally when it comes to languages and the way people dress. Even you and I talked earlier. You go from state to state. I remember taking a train when I first landed in India. I took a train from Tamil Nadu on the southeast side all the way to Mumbai on the west side. And I thought I'd come prepared to India. I'd learned Devanagari, the alphabet for Hindi and Sanskrit. But then I landed in India and everything was in another alphabet, in another language. And then I saw on this train ride, as the hours passed, the alphabet changed. And the alphabet changed at least three times by the time I reached Mumbai. So I was shocked. You know, how can there be so much diversity and difference within one country? But then at the end of the day, when I didn't finally land in Bangalore after a few adventures and misadventures, what I found was just such a quiet, such a stillness, and such an expanded view of the mind and the heart and these practices that really generate that kind of worldview. And that's what really inspired me to stay and keep going with it.

And you were there in the Art of Living Center for nearly four years or so.

On and off for four years, yes.

And what was that? What was the learning like there? What was the shift in your consciousness?

It was amazing. I remember one day we're having South Indian lunch. I think it was probably Italy or something like that. And I like Italy, many people like Italy. I thought, oh, the food is good, the weather is nice, there's really nice people around me, but still my mind is disturbed. Mind is distance. Yeah, this was somewhere near the beginning of my time there. So that made me reflect. Okay, if things on the outside are good and the inside is upset, what's going on? And that was a real inflection point. Because once you see that it's not the outside that makes us upset, but what we have going on inside. It could be past memories, past incidents that happened, that left some imprint left some imprint on our mind and how we see the world, like old hurts. That really changed the course for me. Because then it was a journey not to perfect the outside world, which is impossible. And people, and we could spend years, we lose years trying to make things around us perfect, make the perfect relationship, the perfect job, but then instead change that and say, okay, how do I change my mind? How do I start to work with my mind, my psychology to see the world differently and to expand that horizon? That became the journey from that point on. And that's what I really leaned into in India and found so rewarding. And then Gurudev was often there. So learning from him and you're just seeing new ways of looking at things that just flip your perspective. It was very life-altering.

Thank you so much for sharing, Andrew. It's really, really insightful. And you spoke about the disturbed mind. And the disturbed mind leading to negative emotions. That is the cause, that is at the root, that is the cause of suffering, that is a cause of chronic stress. And chronic stress in the in then is a common denominator in a lot of mental and physical health issues, the psychosomatic issues we see in the world today. We know that the stress is a huge, huge problem.

For absolutely right. Don't they say stress is a correlative factor in a majority of illnesses? I was shocked to read that.

Yeah. Huge amount. I would say 80-90% you could see in a lot of diseases, including autoimmune diseases. You can find that as a common denominator. So the this particular skill what you are sharing can be very useful for people who are having challenging thoughts, who are emotionally feeling emotionally feeling very disturbed, going through challenges, going through crisis, high levels of stress, because we know, as you mentioned earlier, that many people go through suffering. But sometimes what is suffering, and is it just the perception of suffering? So this is a really great start for anybody who wants to work on their stress levels. So, Andrew, what I what I would like to ask you that if somebody is come to you and he's going, he or she is going through some high levels of stress, they are in crisis. What would you do to get them grounded? And where will they start from?

You brought up a really interesting point as a foundation. That when we're struggling with something, what do we do? And I see a lot of people, I've done this in the past as well, we waste so much energy and time wrestling with our thoughts. I think there's this idea that some unpleasant emotion comes up. How do we handle it? We don't want it to be there. And so this layer of suffering that you talked about, we can get so caught up with wishing the thought weren't there, getting more upset that we're feeling this way, that it compounds itself and the stress just intensifies. We get stressed about being stressed, right?

Very true.

And so part of it is just this understanding that we don't have to fight with our thoughts, we don't have to fight with our mind. And sometimes the mind doesn't respond in the best way to being approached like that. So instead, working with the breath, right? The mind, if we say don't get angry, does it not get angry? If we say just fall asleep, does it automatically fall asleep? It doesn't listen directly like that. The breath, however, if we say take a deep breath in and breathe out, we can. And why does it matter? One, it's under our control, it's both voluntary and involuntary. But the other really amazing thing is that the breath and the mind, the emotions are linked. They did an interesting study, maybe you've already seen this, where they had subjects come in, they were measured, and then they exposed them to images that cause different emotions. And then they measured how their breathing pattern changed according to what they were viewing. Then they had a separate group come in, measured their respiratory rate, and had them breathe in those same patterns that were linked with those earlier emotions without any images, and describe how they felt. And what they found was this correlation between emotion and breath. And so that's you know kind of like a golden nugget. Like, here's a technology where we see that breath goes two ways. If we start to change how we breathe, we work with you know the rhythms of the breath, we work with the body positions when we breathe, we work with all these things to refine that breathing. Suddenly we can start changing. We can have more positive affect, we can feel better, we can lower stress, we can help ourselves prevent from getting into crisis mode, but also when it does come, we'll have the tools to help get us out of it. So just at a foundation level, that's where the breath is so essential.

Got it. Thank you, Andrew. Andrew, earlier you mentioned about the thoughts, the thoughts causing the stress. But and that is actually at the root of the boiling frog phenomena. You might have heard about the boiling frog phenomena, which is how chronic stress affects us.

Yes, yeah, it's a fascinating concept.

And the in the reason this is very important is that one is that we see the stress is coming. We can identify it. Suppose you have a difficult argument with somebody, you have an angry argument with somebody, but a lot of stress is under the radar. A lot of stress is sometimes outside our perception. And a lot many thoughts, which we were talking about, the disturbed thoughts, maybe at the level of subconscious of the person. The person is not even aware of those thoughts. You might have seen that people who are going through a lot of stress and they have they go to sleep, and then in the middle of the night, they are awakening because those thoughts are at the subconscious. So, would you like to say anything to that? How we can work on because work on that, because that is at the key, at the root of the chronic stress and the boiling frog phenomena.

We have to go to the root level, it's really essential, and that's where this distinction between wrestling with our thoughts on the surface versus using these physiological tools like the breath work is that difference because how much of our life, maybe the majority, is lived from that subconscious level, where we might, you know, have some ideas and think we know why we're doing something, but really there's all these factors and past mental imprints that are also guiding how we react and how we accumulate stress. And so that's where these techniques, like the breath work, the meditation, help to you know relieve some of these knots at the subconscious, the unconscious level that's so valuable. Because then we feel relief, even though we haven't like intellectually at a very surface level been wrestling with a problem.

Got it. Andrew, if suppose somebody comes to you and they've had a very difficult time in the office, they have been very stressed with difficult coworkers, and you can see from the effect of the person, you can see that they look agitated. Do you have any simple tools we can which can help them immediately ground themselves?

There are a couple that can be immediately useful, even in a situation like that. A lot of it, you know, is kind of learning the technique properly, can take a couple of days and practicing with someone who's trained. But other things can be done rather quickly. One that's become quite popular lately is ujai breath, otherwise known as victory breath.

Victory breath.

Yeah.

And in this, can you demonstrate? Is it possible to demonstrate it?

Sure, sure, let's do that.

Okay.

In this one, we make a slight sound from the back of the throat. There's a very slight constriction. It's almost like drinking a glass of a very refreshing drink on a hot day, and afterwards that sound we make. So that sound, that's very similar sound. Then we do the same thing on the inhale. Then maintaining that same pattern with the mouth closed, breathing through the nose.

And do we need to close our eyes or can we keep our eyes open whilst we are doing this?

At the beginning, just for the instruction part, we keep the eyes open, but in the very next phase, we'll close the eyes to bring the attention more inward. This also helps to relax. We if you're comfortable with this, we can go ahead and close the eyes. Continuing with that breath.

And yes. And I'm grounded.

Shall we do it for a couple minutes and see what happens?

Yes.

So let's continue with the long deep ujae breaths. The incoming breath energizes the body. The outbreath relaxes your body breath. And just taking a minute to notice. And with a light smile, when you feel ready, we can slowly open the eyes. How is that for you?

I'm just feeling so relaxed. I mean it's a so much of a difference in just a few minutes. So I can feel a palpable difference as you can even hear in my voice. So relaxing. Oh Andrew, but these things are so simple. And but why can't they become common practice? Why do we forget it? We know that we are living in a distraction epidemic, and we have got this smartphone which is making people dumb. Less smart, less smart, and now we have got AI, which is absolutely an amazing tool, but equally it can add to that distraction. Now, for a distracted mind on the social media, that all things actually compounds. So it is such a sad paradox that whilst we have such technologies now, which are I feel the game changer because I even we're talking about AI, I use AI in my day-to-day clinical practice, and it has been a game change changer. But equally, how does one find that right balance? And the technique you demonstrated was I could feel the feel the difference, but in the day-to-day busyness, we could forget these things very easily. Oh, this is common sense, just sit down and breathe. But common sense, common, common practices some might not always be so easy to practice if you know what I'm saying. And how can one cultivate that habit?

It's a great point, and the simplicity is at the core, essentially, of why it's so valuable. What was really breathtaking, pun intended for me, learning these was finally, here's a tool that's in my own hands that I can use to manage my emotions, my mind, my state of energy, right? Before something comes up, we don't know how to handle it necessarily. That creates more stress. You may wonder, okay, what do I do now? But just having it, you know, something in your pocket that you can take out when you need it is such a game changer.

Yes.

You know, we both know what the weather's like in Ireland where you are now, and also the UK. It could rain very often, it could rain anytime.

If you have an umbrella raining as we speak.

And if you have an umbrella, you're not worried about it, right? Or if you have a car. But and that's where like the breath work, okay, that's the umbrella. So okay, stuff may come up, but I have a tool to cover me from the stress when it does come up. And then it's it creates this layer of resilience over time. I imagine you can relate as a doctor where okay, but if someone wants to be healthy, they don't necessarily have to do a quick health routine just when they're getting sick. But if they do a daily health routine, you know, sleep well, get the proper amount of sleep at the right times, eat healthy, all this creates the fortitude to boost immunity. Very similar with the foundations of breath work. Even 15, 20 minutes done in the morning creates that resilience, that emotional cover, so that during the day stuff doesn't touch us as much. We don't get thrown off so easily.

Andrew, you just reminded me of the Irish weather. and it brings a of course it brings a lot of greenery, beautiful greenery to Ireland. But what I love about Ireland also is the lovely sense of humor. and when I was looking at your YouTube channel, there was something which was said something and goofy. And how does one you're not you're I'm the reason I'm asking this is you are in the art of living center. How does one cultivate that habit of joyfulness? Yes, the habit of you know that goofiness, is goofiness you mentioned, and just spontaneity.

A lot of it becomes your nature. The more we relax, the more we let go of our shell and stop worrying so much, stop caring too much about what others think about us, you know, the more we can be at ease, and the naturally the more joyful and also playful we allow ourselves to be. If you think when do you feel our most serious, when is it? Often it's when we're walking into a room of new people or giving a presentation or something like that. But the more we feel comfortable and at ease with others, with everyone, the more we can also be playful and express the joy that's already there inside somewhere.

I think that is that is such an important attribute to cultivate in order to have an antidote for the stress. But again, it's it's something which is which is a habit which has to be cultivated over a period of period of time because I see today a lot of youngsters are on their mobile video games and mobile phones, and I can see that the emotional regulation is and is an issue.

Yeah, yeah, it really is. It reminds me of a funny story. I was staying in a Zen monastery for a couple of months before I went to India, and there was very serious. Everyone wore black, and there was no singing, there was no singing allowed. I love music, so it was a little difficult for me. And you know, Ireland has great music, right? And one day we were in the meditation hall, and actually, one of the residents, her cousin from India, had come to visit. He didn't know about the dress code, so he shows up in this you know very shiny white silk thing, and then after the meditation, he starts singing. He didn't know the rules, and it was so joyful, it was so beautiful. It was also such a reminder what music and like that element of celebration and joy that can bring into our lives. Another thing my teacher Gurdav really kind of made sense for me is sometimes we pretend to be happy, we put on a happy face, even when we're not, and this creates turmoil within, right? And we see that especially with young people in social media. There's this urge to present a certain view to the world where you're a model, where you're happy, where the unhappiness isn't what we show to the world. And he said, you know, don't make happiness a mood making, but make it a practice. Happiness isn't just an emotion that comes and goes, but it's a practice, like cleaning our bodies of practice, committing to okay, come what may, today I'm gonna practice happiness. That's made a real big difference in my life. Just that idea, not letting outside things determine my inner weather, inner happiness, inner temperament.

Yes. It's like an art, it has to be cultivated. Definitely while whilst you are working in the art of living center in the United States, do you practice? Do you help people to cultivate these skills?

100%. So I practice them daily myself to keep my own temperament sound. And then on the weekends, every weekend we run retreats as well as every weekdays as well, where we teach people some of these skills of how to manage the mind. We teach a practice called sky breath meditation, different art of living retreats, and then they go home. One, having an experience of peace of mind, of letting go, of cleaning a house, as it were, but also having the tools that they can continue to keep this good, sound mental health even after they go back. So it's really a training campus, I like to think of it in many ways.

What you are saying that something which should something which really sticks and causes more deeper profound shifts rather than just a temporary fix, isn't it?

Exactly.

I like to I like the word you had you had you used in one of your conversations. I was listening is practical spirituality and what you demonstrated to us just now earlier with the breathing tech technique and the earlier discussion we had about how to create that state of joy, and then also being aware, also being continuously aware of our thoughts and emotions, and what are what are triggering what are triggering these things.

Yeah, it's so it's a big revelation, right? When we wake up, we become awake to okay, what's going on inside? Honestly, that's half the conversation sometimes. One of the points from the Art of Living course is it's not so much as important, it's almost as important what's being taught in the course as just becoming aware of this conversation happening in your own mind. That was another wake-up call for me. Like, oh, there is this conversation happening in my our mind, and we all experience it, right? Like someone might ask you, tell you something, and part of the mind goes, Yes, I agree with it, or no, I don't think so. And just becoming aware of this, it loses its grip on us.

Loses its grip on us, yeah. Andrew, these days we want everything very fast. And if you want to share skills and tools with the youngsters and people, they might think how much time it's how much I have to invest in that. How much the realistically time you can start seeing the differences? Like you demonstrated the breathing, and I could immediately feel a difference. But for somebody who is going through high levels of stress, which has been going on for years and sometimes decades, how much how much time realistically one can expect for these for these tools, skills to start making a difference that they have the hope and also the perseverance to continue this. Because otherwise it's so easy to fall back into the into the patterns.

It is very easy to give up hope and fall back into it, and I feel a bit bad when I hear people who come to the retreat say to me, I tried to meditate, I started, but my mind was too busy or I was having too many thoughts, so I gave up. And it's such a waste, right? Because there's so much there, there's so much potential if we approach it from the right angle. And so, you know, I say if you didn't know how to swim and you just jumped in a pool, you know, your first experience might not be that great. But once you learn how, it becomes quite easy. And that's the beautiful thing about these methods, is that the science shows there's actually effects that happen from the very first session. So people experience some benefits from the first weekend. It only takes a few days, a couple of hours a day to really learn enough to practice independently and continue on your own. But from that first weekend, people see results. And that's what really blew my mind as well, because I had been training in different meditation methods for six years before I discovered Art of Living. And it was a struggle sometimes. I remember sitting for hours and wondering, okay, how do we do this? How do I meditate? Like, what's the method to it? So having that is such a relief.

Absolutely astute to know that one can access these powerful techniques and make the difference. Andrew, I was watching several of your animations and videos, and I found that very creative. So have you always been this creative with the films with your background, or has that also become much deeper and profound over a period of time with the work you have done on yourself?

You're right, it's really opened up kind of new doors of creativity. Now I'll meditate and then you know I'll come out, and there's all these ideas, and honestly, more ideas than I have hands to do to execute. That's another wonderful thing about meditation, is it you know that silence opens up this whole fountain of it opens up kind of this well of creativity.

Yes, absolutely.

And I saw your book, you had all those beautiful illustrations with the frog, and I thought it was a very creative approach to tackling this idea of stress.

So thank you for bringing that up, Andrew. So, to give you a background, in 2014, I realized that I was the boiled frog. You know that in healthcare there is a huge amount of stress, and I realized that with chronic exhaustion, cognitive fog, and then I realized that this is not the right way to be. Because there are two pillars in life the science of achievement. In our in my circle, I see people who are exceptionally talented, very successful, but still they are very unhappy. The second pillar is the art of living, and that is the reason I was so excited to have you on the show, because unless and until you have both, the life can be very incomplete. So in 2014, when I realized that I was the boiled frog, I started looking at it that how can I transform this boiling frog into a more controlled environment into a jacuzzi. Kind of the techniques you shared just now can make it more controlled temperature. Now I'm aware of the temperature, I'm controlling the temperature, and I'm enjoying this heat. So I got one of the good illustrators in London, and I said these are the scientific concepts which are based in either coaching psychology or based in medicine. And I want people to see that picture and the penny drop for them. And who will know or understand this better than you who have who has such a background in animation from Stanford? You see the picture and the penny drops for you, and that is a great self-awareness tool. Because if there is no self-awareness, forget about the execution. You cannot bring, if I'm not aware that I'm stressed and how I'm coming across, then I'm not going to sit down and even take this deep breaths. If I know that okay, I am I'm my heart, I'm having some palpitations, I'm feeling a little agitated, exhausted, and my body is telling me, then I take a time either to go for a mindful walk or sit down and do some breathing techniques. So any kind of imagery and the boiling frog and the work I saw with the art of living, a fascinating, inspiring videos you put on the art of living. Would you mind if I put a link of that for the listeners to watch that seven-minute video?

Please feel welcome.

Yeah, that is a really, really profound because not only talked about different fa facets which you talked about, but also a kind of a culture and everything you were talking about in that particular video was actually just the opposite of what stress or what chronic stress brings to brings to life. So thank you so much for making such a such a creative and awesome video.

100%. I appreciate that. And you're right, we're very strong often in the science of achievement and poor in the art of living. And all this is to reverse this. I link it a little with the sympathetic and parasympathetic system, and you know, sympathetic often you know label as fight or flight, flight or fight, and you know, it's that go, go, go, right? It's that activation and the parasympathetic, the rest, we don't give as much attention to rest as to achievement. And so you know, it gets to 9:30, 11 at night, and people don't know how to turn off.

Yes.

And I think that's where, like, you know, that's the gift that Guru Dev is really showing to the world is how to rest, how to move back into parasympathetic mode so we can create from there, we can act from there, we can come from a place energized, but from rest within ourselves.

Yes. Well, actually, when you did the when you did that restful meditation, I was just thinking how am I going to complete that episode? Because I was already feeling so relaxed and almost wanting to go to rest.

So that it is We could have gone for 20 minutes, but I also wanted to, you know, didn't want to end the episode like that.

Yeah, no, I think it will be a really good tool to people for listeners to get that insight.

Just not while you're driving.

Yeah, not whilst you not whilst you're driving. Well, if you are tired, then you can one can one could pull the car and do that exercise, and that might make you more rested and fresh because to be to be alert while whilst you're driving.

And I do that often. In America, we get these long drives where several times a year I'm having to drive six, eight hours, sometimes ten hours, and I get sleepy. And so what I do is I pull over, I'll run a bit, and I'll do some of these breathing exercises that bring that energy back.

Yes. Andrew, I know we are coming to the end of the episode today, and it's really been so insightful, everything you have shared, and I will myself learn a lot of techniques from here to start applying more regularly in a day-to-day in day-to-day life. Before we finish, anything you would like to share with the listeners who have been in situations where they feel that there is no they feel very trapped and they feel there is no way out. Anything of wisdom that you would like to share?

It can feel very natural when life bogs us down with so many burdens or responsibilities that sometimes we feel a bit down or trapped. But to remember that there's always a way out, there's always hope. And part of that stems, the roots from managing our energy. If we can lift our spirits, lift ourselves up, that kind of gives us that initial start to then you know we can start to manage things around us a bit better. But again, I love your metaphor of the jacuzzi. You know, how do we transform our environment to jacuzzi here to show you? Yeah, let's see.

Yeah, this is the jacuzzi where these four frogs are not getting boiled now, but rather they are aware and they are having a having a thorough enjoyment of their of their of the environment.

So we can't turn everything off around us, but we can make our experience of it more of a jacuzzi, more of a sauna, and less of a boiling frog.

Very, very, very, very true. And I have applied these principles in the last 10 years and come a very long way. But Andrew, what I've also learned that so much you learn, so much you learn, you can always go back, you can always go back. That's why the regular practice and associations also with people who are in the spiritual journey is very, very helpful.

And when I makes all the difference, it makes all the difference.

Otherwise, it's so easy to get back, fall back into the old patterns. And when I read about you, when I saw some videos, and I was just fascinated, somebody coming from one of the best centers in the world from Stanford, and then going to the spirituality with that curiosity and curiosity and that quest for knowledge and the transformation you've had in yourself, and now you are sharing this work with the world, it is really inspiring. We all need it because we are living in a stress epidemic, and we say in medicine that it's prevention is always better than cure, and if we do these activities on a consistent basis, not only will it help us improve our daily quality of our life, the art of living, the quality of life, but also prevent a lot of psychosomatic, a lot of mental health issues.

I couldn't agree more that we need this in our education and our day-to-day lives, much more now when things are so stressful and busy than ever before.

Thank you, Andrew. Andrew, thank you so much for joining me at the transforming stress and definitely the techniques, the wisdom that you have shared with us will help people transform their stress into something much beautiful, much lighter, joy, and help them lead a much healthier and a joyful life. If listeners want to learn more about your work, what would be the best way, Andrew?

You can find us online at artofliving.org. And you can find me on socials, on Instagram, YouTube, and Substack at andrew.keveny. K-E-A-V-E-N-E-Y.

And Andrew, I know with your Irish background, you will know that in Ireland we don't say goodbye, we say until we meet again. And it is a really, really, it was very joyful, inspiring conversation with you.

And very similar to India, right? Where you say I'll I'll go and come.

I'll go, yes, yes. So until we're going to go. I'll come back. I'll come back. Yes. So we'll look forward to seeing you in the future. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom.

Slan, I appreciate being here.

Thank you.

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