From Rockets to Resilience: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome & Launching Your Life with Purpose with John Mollura

Please join us every Friday at 5 p.m. and let's start together. Let's start with today's episode.

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Transforming Stress with Dr Ash podcast. And today I've got a very special guest for you, Mr. John Mollora. John is has got a very unique career. He's worked with NASA for around 15 years, and from NASA flying rockets, and then he shifted to photography, then executive coaching speaker. And what I found unique with John, how he has integrated and put everything together. And today he's coaching high-profile individuals and organizations to their peak performances. But the principles, what he learned from rocketry, his engineering career have been very, very inspiring to me. Welcome to the podcast, John. Thank you for taking out your time. And I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.

Yeah, thanks so much, Ash. I really appreciate you sharing your audience with me.

So, John, tell me about your inspiring journey from rocketry at NASA, and then getting into photography, national geographic, and then you got into executive coaching. It's really very beautiful. But what skills, the transferable skills you brought from each of them is just simply inspiring for me. And when I was when I was reading about you, I could draw a lot of metaphors. Like I'm always inspired by aviation. Recently I was in San Diego, I got the opportunity to fly a plane. I'm always inspired by aviation medicine and rocketry because the amount of pre-work, the amount of preparation, the precision, I think we can learn a lot of things from you. I think the healthcare can learn a lot of things from your skills. So please share if you don't mind sharing your journey.

Sure. I'll I'll I'll give you the real quick version. And I always say I forced gumped my way through life, going back to that movie from the 90s, forced gump, where Tom Hanks just kind of just went through life and just kind of found himself in all these different situations, these pivotal moments. And a lot of times he didn't even say yes, he just was along for the ride. And that's how I would sum up probably the first two-thirds of my life, Ash. And you might be thinking, like, how do you end up working with NASA as a as an independent contractor if you just were forced gumping your way through life? And real talk, even though I did well in school, even it was a struggle, but I did well in school, I never really had goals that I set. And hindsight being what it is, the reason why I never set goals, Ash, is because I was so scared of not achieving them. Because despite having tremendous success on paper, whether it was an engineering degree or once I got into the workforce, letters of commendation from the military, I never really believed I deserved them. So the world now knows that is imposter syndrome, but if we back it up 20 plus years ago, we didn't have that vocabulary, especially in the industry I worked in, you know, government, working with military units, like mental health and things like that was not really something we talked about. So throughout a lot of my career, yes, I operated at a very high performance, but it was fear-based. So that meant my stress was always so high. Because I never felt worthy. So I just would volunteer for the most challenging projects or missions that we were doing, and especially if they were potentially hazardous, because I thought if I did the next thing, maybe then I'd feel worthy enough. Which you don't. It's just now you level it up to where you're performing. Now it's now it's fear-based. Now it's like, okay, now I gotta build this house of cards up even higher. So for a lot of my career, a lot of the things I did and the accomplishment I made were really because I was trying to prove that I was worthy, which was not sustainable, which was you know what led me to really taking stock of where I was showing up after this 15-year on paper successful career and what kind of life I really wanted to live going forward.

Amazing. Amazing. And like you mentioned about that making new and more challenging goals just to make like your mind is making new goal posts for you. And one is not sitting and actually celebrating our own achievements and our successes, what we have done so far. Right. And really, you are spot on, John, there, that this is a pattern I've seen in my own self. Yeah, this is a pattern we see in high achievers, that it is never enough. I have actually coined a term for it, and I call it self-bullying. And the reason I say that because rather than honoring your own struggle, acknowledging your own successes, then you are setting up a higher and higher goal, which is absolutely reasonable to do. But it should be coming from a place of gratitude and celebration of what we have already done. Right. So, you know, thank you for sharing that insight because I feel that is a common problem with a lot of successful and ultra-successful people.

Absolutely. I was gonna say, I see that all the time. And going back to my own story, I remember at the conclusion of a multi-year project we were doing for the US military, we got letters of commendation as civilians. And I can remember standing in front of our whole company, they had our team up there, and you know, our company president was calling us up by name and giving us these letters of commendation that the military gave us. And right before my name got called, I now I now realized I was having a panic attack. Like everything just got black on the edges of my vision, my heart started racing. And the only thought I could think of, it wasn't a thought of, wow, this is so awesome to be recognized for all this hard work the team and I have done over these years. It was, oh my gosh, what if they find out that I was faking it and I really don't deserve this? So I don't even remember getting the letters of commendation, Ash. I went up there, I shook the company president's hand, stood on the side of the room, and then when we were dismissed, I went and took those letters of commendation and stuffed them in a folder, and they lived in my desk for a decade. They never saw the light of day. And I'm pleased to report that behind me, these are the letters of commendation on my wall. And the reason why I have all these things behind me on my wall, these are these are various units I had the opportunity to work with and mission patches throughout my course and test engineering and other things. The reason why I have those there, Ash, is because just like you said, high performers don't stop and recognize all the hard work we've done. We are so goal-oriented or mission-focused or whatever you want to call it, that by the time we finish something, and usually we crush it and do an absolutely phenomenal job, by the time we reach that point, we're already off to the next three things. And we don't say, you know what, that was actually really challenging for these days, weeks, months, years that it took for this project. And it's so important to pause. That's why when I'm speaking on like imposter syndrome, ways to overcome that, one of the biggest things I say is you need to stop and take stock of your wins. You know, give yourself some ammunition to fight that internal bullying or that self-bullying, like you mentioned. So I encourage people to create an archive of awesome, is what I call it. Yeah, archive of awesome. And what that is, is it's just a list of things that you've done from your entire life that you're proud of. People might say, like, I'm a professional, you know, I'm 40, 50 years old, whatever they are. Why does it matter that, you know, some medal I won as a Boy Scout when I was eight? And the reason why I say it's so important is because when we write down our accomplishments, when we write those down and take a moment to pause and build that pause in, it lets it sit somatically in your body. Your nervous system gets to relax a little bit and get closure on something. And people are running all over the place, and our nervous systems just don't get closure on anything anymore. Because it's always people say I'm multitasking, which spoiler alert, like no one's a multitasker. Your brain can literally handle one thing at a time. What you're doing is micro switching, which is not efficient. So taking time to write down something you're proud of not only gives you that nervous system release in the moment, but you're also giving yourself a love letter to the future you. So in those days where you wake up and you don't think you're able to do what's in front of you, you can pull out this archive of awesome and be like, you know what? Look at this track record I have of always doing what it takes to be successful and learning from it. So that's why I always encourage people, just pause, write down, celebrate the wins, whether they're big or small. And the reason why it's important to do for your whole life is because fear doesn't fight fair. Fear is going to bring things up that happened decades ago, you know, when you're a little guy or gal. And it's gonna trip you up all these years later. So fear's not gonna fight fair. Why should we fight fair with you know taking credit for the positive things we've done in our life?

So true. So true. I mean, John, what you have shared is absolutely so important, and I saw sometimes I get cups, you know, the coffee cups, which with my like recently I published the book The Boiling Frog. So I inscribe the book on that. So every time I'm sipping a coffee, I'm celebrating the success.

Yeah.

So celebrating and gratitude towards others who have helped us reach where we are and towards our own selves, honoring our own struggle is so important part of the journey. So, congratulations for your beautiful, colorful, lovely, lovely medals behind you, and they are really tremendous milestones. Thank you now. John, going back to the imposter syndrome is a common situation which we feel. How what are the top tips you give to people you work with to deal with them?

Yeah, yeah, and I'll I'll just pause for a moment. If anyone's not familiar with imposter syndrome, what it is despite whatever level of achievement education you've had, it's feeling like you're faking everybody. And you don't really deserve that. So you're you're like an imposter in there. and it was coined back in the 1970s. And so if you've ever felt like despite having the degrees, the awards, the accolades, the successful track record that you don't belong, that's imposter syndrome. So the number one thing that I always tell people to do to counteract those, you know, that imposter syndrome mentality is to trust your cheerleaders. Trust your cheerleaders. And by that I mean when someone gives you a compliment, when someone asks you to do something, because they say, Hey, I saw this work you did, I would love for you to be on my podcast, right? What it's so important to trust your cheerleaders, to trust those people that see something in you. Because I know I did this so much in my own life. Whenever someone would give me a compliment, it would feel really uncomfortable. It would feel really uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, like you don't believe it, you don't even know how to respond. So what do we do? We a lot of times we either deflect it. So if someone says, like, hey John, I really like those shoes. Deflecting it would be like, oh, these, I got them from Amazon for like 20 bucks, or oh, these, my wife found them for me and told me to wear them. Or, you know, professionally, it's like, hey, good job on that project. I really appreciate you hitting that deadline. Oh, well, it wasn't me, it was the whole team that I led, right? But we don't say that team that I led, we say, oh, the whole team did it. Give them all the credit. And it's not a matter of being braggadocious or not humble. But if someone tells you something, like, trust that cheerleader, trust that person. Like, whenever you said, yeah, I'd love to do a podcast with you, John, I'm like, okay, that's awesome. You know, a well-respected doctor who has this well-established podcast sees enough in me. I'm going to choose that Ash is a good enough judge of character that I'm worthy to be there. So trusting your cheerleaders is all about reframing how we get compliments, which all sounds good, right? But I bet your audiences would like to know what to practically and tactically do when someone gives them the compliment. So is it okay if I share my three-step process for how to accept a compliment? Awesome. So if you're someone who was like me, that feels very awkward when someone gives you a compliment, follow these three steps. The first step, when someone says something nice to you, personally or professionally, is just give them a nice smile. Just give them a nice smile. That's step one. Step two, and this is where a lot of people get tripped up. Step two is what you do is you say thank you. That's it. Just say thank you. That's a full sentence. It's not, thank you, my wife picked these out for me. Thank you, everyone else did all the work. It's just, oh, hey, thank you so much. And then step three is just smile again. Give them a warm smile. And it I love that you said talking about coffee mugs, and I didn't plan this at all. Serendipity, but I actually have a coffee mug with that visually on it.

So that is a problem.

Smile, say thank you, and smile again. That's my three-step process for how to start trusting your cheerleaders. Because the reason why that's so important, Ash, is to trust what people say, is our brain's always listening to us, right? We're the person we spend the most time with out of our lives. So if our brain is continually basically saying we're not worthy of the good things people say about us, guess what we're going to believe? We're not worthy. We're not good enough. We can't pick out clothes that are good on our own. We're not all the all the things. So every time we deflect a compliment, we're basically reinforcing that negative thought pattern that we're not worthy. So by saying thank you, now we're giving our brain that information that you know what? We are worthy. We can trust these cheerleaders. They're actually telling us the truth. And the other thing that it does is when we say thank you, is it's actually honoring the gift the other person has just given us to. Because if someone gives you a compliment and you deflect it, you're basically saying, like, hey, thanks for saying that. I don't believe you, but here's that compliment back. Which is not a positive way of interaction. Yeah. Yeah. So trust your cheerleader. So smile, say thank you, and say and smile again. And it might feel weird the first couple times you do it. You might feel all sorts of ways in your tummy, right? But the more you get used to it, the more it's just gonna become a rhythm. You're gonna start pouring life into yourself.

It's going to become a very positive habit, but more than that, you have broken a cycle of not acknowledging your wins and successes. And I mean, wins and successes is just the medal you get at the end, but honoring your own journey, getting up every morning, going to work, following a routine, embracing all the hard work, embracing the boredom, any success will have that cycle. And just saying thank you to yourself. And so such a powerful technique you have shared, John. Thank you very much for that. And you mentioned earlier that I of course I found when I was reading about you very inspiring, and I shared with you earlier the reasons. So when I had in fact I've seen a movie recently, which it was a Bollywood movie on rocketry. Okay, and around that time I just I connected with you, and I thought the universe it seems wants me to speak with you to share this message. So when you are flying a rocket, if you if you see take that analogy, so like tons and tons, so there is that with the visual which comes in my mind is the flames, is the ignition which gets the rocket off. Okay, so many people would want to make to have projects, two things in their life, and they are procrastinating, procrastinating, but we require some fuel to get it off, right? Then the rocket is in space, and it's all about whether it is going in the course correction. So, what is the direction it is taking? Small, small, small steps. And then finally, what is the destination? Because the destination is also ultra important as you speak about it, like creating your legacy in life, and we create whatever we think about, whatever we work on a consistent basis. So I would be very grateful. First of all, let's fly the rocket, let's the get let's get the rocket off the ground. And what are the what is the positive fuel, not just motivation, because we mentioned earlier procrastination is one thing, right? Imposter syndrome is one thing. So what is the positive fuel you can share with the listeners, which they can keep a stock of whenever they want to do things.

Yeah, absolutely. So all those things you talked about, whether it's overthinking, perfectionism, procrastination, imposter syndrome, those are all just like weight and drag holding that holding the rocket of your life down. Right? If there's too much drag, if there's too much stuff pulling the rocket towards the end towards the earth, and the engine doesn't have enough oomph to get it up, you're not going anywhere. Right? So how do we reduce the drag? How do we reduce the friction? How do we clear that noise that's clattering around between our ears? And what we need to do is to cut through that noise, we need to call out overthinking, perfectionism, procrastination, imposter syndrome for what they for what they are. And at the root of all of them, the root cause of all of that is fear. It's fear of and it can look different for everybody, but some things that showed up in my life. What if this doesn't work? What will people say? What if what if I lose money? What if what if it does work and now I have to operate at this level continually? Right? Because just like a rocket, like we can't burn that much fuel forever. So we have all these things and it'll show up and manifest in different ways. So if we can get to the core and realize, okay, what and ask ourselves a very brave question what am I scared of that's causing me to overthink this? What am I scared of if I actually do this and don't wait for perfect? Which spoiler alert audience. Perfect doesn't exist. Even in the space program, they never tell you exactly what number something has to be. The most complex, high fidelity, required part in a rocket engine, navigation system, whatever it is, they never say exactly what it needs to be. They say it needs to be this, plus or minus, a tolerance. Plus or minus. Yeah, there's always a tolerance. Now, depending on what you're doing, that tolerance might be super duper tiny. Just like if you're doing brain surgery in the medical community, the margin for error is much smaller there than if you're, I don't know, taping a sprained ankle, right? So we need to understand like when is it good enough? When is it going to be enough that I can I can launch, I can start something, and then the key is being okay with having understanding you're going to have to do these course corrections. And that's not a fault, that's a feature that allows you to fine-tune your navigation of where you're going.

That is that is absolutely spot on, John. That understanding that what stuck with me with so many insights you have shared is that you cannot indefinitely burn your fuel. The rocket has to fly, you have to get on. You have to have that trust that once you have got it, then you will continue to course correct. The most you can look at your past in the beautiful work, the exceptional work you have done in different areas.

Yeah.

So many things we just take for granted, which we do, including walking. 30, 40, 50, 30, 40 years. We might not be running, we might be just getting up, crawling as toddlers, and slowly and slowly you start walking and then running. So know that get it off. And once you have started, that is the nature, that is the essence of any project, any skill is continual, continuous course correction.

Right.

And not perfectionism. As you said, perfectionism doesn't exist. So great. I mean, that those are some absolutely amazing insights. And now we have got the rocket off the ground. We have got the right fuel. We have the trust, we have trust in ourselves, work we have done, and it is off in the air. Now, what are the principles and what are the things you have to keep in mind to continuously course correct and keep it keep it flow of keep it flying till the time it is there a term known as escape velocity? Something I remember from the decades, decades back. Decades back in physics. Until the time it you have developed a certain level of skill, what are the next skills or things to remember?

Yeah, so I want to just rewind a little bit and give your audience something to hold on to, especially those that are fine per perfectionism really has a hold on them. And they might be like, Well, if it's if it's not perfect, then I don't want to do it, right? To which I always say perfectionism doesn't exist. And they're like, Okay, hot shot, then what do I do? Am I just supposed to put out garbage? And I say, no. Instead of perfectionism, the mindset you have to have is a mindset of excellence. So what's the difference between perfectionism and excellence? Well, perfectionism is no mistakes. By definition, zero, zip, zero, zilch, nada, no mistakes, which doesn't exist anywhere in nature. Excellence, on the other hand, is sustainable because excellence is all about identifying what is going to be an acceptable level of effort, of performance that will move you forward. Right? So if you find yourself getting stuck in perfectionism, shift out of that autopilot mode of perfectionism and become aware. And when you're in it, just like, okay, I'm being perfectionistic. What can I do to focus on excellence? Because that is what will help you really move the needle forward at a very high level of quality.

Very, very true. And also give umeself a reasonable amount of time period of reaching excellence. And during that journey, one of the other things which I feel helps very much is celebrating small wins.

Yes.

In that journey to excellence.

Yeah, yeah, small consistent action is what's going to get you to your goals. And that's that's where so many people fall off, is especially now, like humans by nature aren't very patient creatures. Well, thanks to modern the modern era, the TikToks of the world and cell phones and everything being instantaneous, now we're really not patient, right?

We are really not yeah. We are really, and it's I think you have really identified a very crucial thing. The attention we have lost patience, and the attention and the focus has been really fractured.

Yeah, and so many people do themselves a disservice when they don't admit that modern society, whether it's the notifications on your computer, on your phone, your home, device, whatever you have, they are all highly engineered by very talented software engineers, psychologists, branding people, color theorists, sounds that they use, like these things are all engineered to get the most valuable commodity that we have on our planet. It's not oil, it's not whatever whiz-bang things goes in a battery and cell phones. The most valuable commodity we have on our planet is time. Time. Our time and attention. So if we can recognize that these things are truly, their objective is to get our time. Now, how do we set guardrails up around that? How do we how do we set up focus modes on our phone or on our computer to give us that those blocks of time where we need to focus? Right? Not every instance of everything deserves your time immediately. Not everything deserves your time immediately.

John, this is I am seeing in my in the clinical practice, and more and more people with what we call this dooms, dooms scrolling and continuously being distracted. and that is that is not good. That is not good for anything we are doing in our life, it is not good for our mental health, our physical health. So can we share and brainstorm some ideas here that how do we break this habit? Because this is this is really a very new epidemic, I would say, or rather a pandemic for the last five years or more. and we see that it is it is you'll be shocked to see the statistics. The statistics are that the screen time for many people is exceeding the sleep time. Wow. So they might be on this for eight hours, nine hours, and the sleep might be five hours. Wow, for example. And now that is that speaks to so many things, and as you know, many diseases are because of poor amounts of sleep. Now I understand that for many people this is also a business tool. They are doing social media, and I understand that is of there is there is that value, then but what is that balance then that we can get the balance right?

Any thoughts you would like to absolutely and the word I come back to for all that is what intentionality? What's our intentionality with our time? Because if we're not intentional with how we spend our time, Ash, it's just gonna it's gonna evaporate. So the way to tie that back to our phones is what are the rhythms that we're doing? What are the guardrails we're putting around our life? Like I was just speaking with someone I was coaching them this week, and they said, I have this book that I'm trying to read from my men's group, and he said, I hate to say this, but I don't have the time to do it. And he said, I know that's a lie because I spend so much time on my phone. And he said, I know I have the time, but I don't know how to break that. And I said, Okay, I said, well, set yourself up for success, but start with a small rule. Because another thing people do is when they try to make changes, they try to make too big a change at once. Right? Like, I'm sure you've you've had patients, Ash, where they're like, I want to lose weight, and you're like, okay, what's your plan? They're like, I'm gonna eat kale and only drink lemon water for a month, right? Not sustainable, too much too soon, and it's gonna crash and burn, right? Yeah, so going back to our time, like this person I was coaching, I said, All right, well, how about this? I said, We're human. Everybody, you know, has to use the bathroom, right? I said, what if when you do that, instead of taking your phone in and playing your game, you set it on the table outside, and on that table you have your book, and you pick your book up and you read for whatever amount of time you're in there doing your thing, right? Not to get too graphic. And they're like, you know what, that's actually brilliant. And they're like, well, I don't know where I'll put my book. I said, don't overthink it. Don't put in a magazine rack, don't do anything, lay it on the floor next to it, lay it behind the commode, whatever you need to do. Like, these are the kind of real practical things about being intentional with our time. Put a sticky note on your door, put your phone down, right? And then do it. And once you start taking those small, consistent actions, your brain's gonna really start trusting you. Because a lack of confidence is not because we haven't got the awards, a lack of confidence is not because we don't have the bank account, a lack of confidence is not because we don't have the car. A lack of confidence, what it truly is, is our brain doesn't trust us because it has so much data that says we don't do what we say we're going to do. So to counteract that, we start keeping promises to ourselves. Little, small promises, one at a time.

John, I'm really glad that we touched on this topic because earlier we were we were talking about execution, and I see that this is a very topical issue which is affecting a lot of people. And thank you for sharing some really great insights and what you mentioned that intentionality is important, awareness is important, first of all, that how it is affecting you, and then intentionality of how then what you are going to do with your time.

I love that you mentioned the difference between getting or we talked about getting out of autopilot and being coming aware. And the one thing I just want to touch on real quick is we want to make sure that we're being aware, but that we don't slide into being aware and judgmental, especially of ourselves, that self-bullying that you talked about. I call that the that's where the critic lives, that critic navigator.

Critic lives.

Yep. So when you're judgmental and aware, like it's very easy to be so self-critical of yourself. So we want to take the posture of being aware, of course, so we can know what's going on, and shifting from that position of judgment to curiosity. I call that being in the seeker mentality. Like we know where we want to go and we're curious about it, and we're aware of what's happening around us, but we're not we're not beating ourselves up. So make sure that we're aware and curious and shift into that mindset.

Shift into that mindset. You know, John, earlier you mentioned about the mindset. I would like to have a little bit more deeper dive into the mindset. Okay. Because whatever we are doing in life or business or work has both support and challenge. And when and when you're working with professionals, senior professionals, executives, how do you train them to develop a mindset which is all embracing of that there is nothing like perfection, it's not there in nature. I mean, if you see weather, we see the challenges in the weather, we see in the challenge in the in the traffic. Expecting things to be perfect, like if I go to work, I expect problems. I feel that I'm paid to solve problems. If I have a dysfunctional colleague, I feel as a senior consultant, I am there to help them out, I'm there to solve that problem. So I see it in my mind as a problem. So I really want the to pick your brains on how you help professionals to work on their mindsets. Because I think after the awareness, this is a very, very important thing to work on.

Yeah, and the biggest thing is to become aware of the of the way it's manifesting itself. And I call these like the inner saboteurs that live inside of us. And if we look at what makes for successful sabotage, right? Like we all love like a good like spy novel, or you can go back through history and see how saboteurs influence the outcome of various conflicts, wars, what have you. There are two things that you need to be a successful saboteur. The first thing is while the sabotage is happening, people don't know it's happening. People don't know it's happening while it's while it's going on. The second thing for saboteur to be successful is once the event has happened, the sabotage has happened, no one knows where it came from. Those are the two things that successful sabotage requires. So if we look at that our the our performance through that lens, it's like, how are we sabotaging ourselves? And the first the first one is with our time. I call that the time sabotage. We already touched about on the first one, which is that vapor of perfectionism. Where are we telling ourselves it's not good enough, not good enough, not good enough, not good enough, not good enough, and we don't actually go anywhere. And the reason why that is so insidious is because perfectionism on its surface seems like you care a lot. Like people care a lot about it. It's like, well, I was supposed I said I was gonna exercise 20 minutes today, but you know what? I'm I'm I'm five minutes late, and I only do things perfectly, so since I can't get my full 20 minutes in, I'll just add five minutes tomorrow to my exercise. Right? What happens? You get to the end of the week and you've added another like 40 minutes of exercise onto what you were supposed to do, and then it becomes overwhelming, and then you don't do it. So being aware of like, you know, perfectionism definitely sabotages us. You know, and then how do we sabotage ourselves with relationships, building that awareness in out of autopilots? Like, do we have this lone wolf mentality? Like, I'm only worthy if I struggle and do all of this on my own. Right? You know, as a as an American who grew up watching all the you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger's and Sylvester Stallone and you know, rest in peace, Chuck Norris, who just passed away yesterday at the time of this recording. Like, those are all the idols that we looked up to, and they didn't need anybody. Right? They did it on their own. You had this lone wolf mentality when that's really not the way we're designed as humans. Like, like we're we're designed for social. Do we need to be able to handle ourselves and able to be responsible and take action on our own? Absolutely, but doesn't mean you have to be a lone wolf. Are we sabotaging our relationships with the walls that we build up around ourselves? Do we push people away based on past hurts, traumas, whatever it is that we need to unpack with a counselor? Because counselors are all about helping you with the past events. Coaching, as you know, is about taking stock of where are we, what's a realistic picture, and how are we going to create a path forward to get you to where you want to be to honor the future you? And then finally, are we sabotaging our relationships by blowing up bridges? Right? If we can't push people away, if we can't do enough on our own, are we exhibiting toxic traits to just really stop relationships? Because not talking about relationships that need to be stopped, relationships that are negative or abusive or things like that. Talking about these relationships that's like maybe it'd be easier if I just quit having that person challenge me or that person quit speaking life into me to try to have me level up. So a lot of leaders, when I talk to them about this, this saboteurs, they're like, oh my gosh, I had no idea I was doing you know some gyration of those things. And I'm like, okay, now that we're aware, let's not judge ourselves, let's be curious and say, how has that impacted us? And now, what are some ways we can switch that now that we're aware of it?

But in your work with leaders, have you been able to reach that point that you've been able to give them feedback and they have not become very defensive?

Yeah, so sometimes that does happen, but a lot of that is, you know, that's a that's a response on their end. So as a coach, it's very important to realize that as long as I've presented things in a respectful way, because there's always there's a respectful way and then there's another way to say things. And I talk a lot about this in my communications, you know, stuff that I do with people. If we think of like the way, you know, if we go back to middle school science to go even further back than your physics, Ash, it's you know, the fire triangle. Like what where are the three things needed to sustain a flame? You need fuel, you need heat, and you need oxygen, right? You take away any one of those things and the flame dies. Well, just like a flame, our conversations can go up in flames if we don't treat them right. So the fuel, a lot of times, is the history we have with someone. It's like a pile of dried wood just sitting there ready to go up. And then, yeah, and then we have the spark of delivery. Because it's not what you say, it's how you say it. And then finally, you know, the oxygen that just keeps things burning is our ego. So if I can remove my ego from things, and that ego in a conversation is that desire to be right, it's no longer about understanding. The ego kicks in when we just want to be right and win the conversation. Whenever I can present a discussion like that to a client, and if they do get defensive, that's actually an opportunity to get curious about what was that really upset them so much. I remember when I hired my first coach, like, geez, I mean, we're going back probably 14 years at this point, they would say things and I would get so angry. Because I was at the very beginning of my journey, and they would just lean in and they're like, Hey, I'm just curious, why'd that why'd that affect you so much? I'm like, Well, because you're rude. And he's like, Why do you feel that was rude? I just I just asked why you're not making a decision when you have all the information. Well, you don't understand. Yeah. So yes, people do become defensive, and whether it's a coaching client or even just in a conversation, if we can enact that empathy to realize, hey, look, as long as I was doing my part to present that information in a way that lands well for them, because communication is about having the message land well for them. Right? And getting our point across. Then it can it's an opportunity to lean into that curiosity about okay, why was why was that upsetting? Why did that show up that way for you?

And also, you're coming from a place that you are trying to help them and tell them that you've got so many good strengths, but these are some blind spots which might really be setting you up for your for the stress you are creating for your own self and for other people around you. So, again, as you said very correctly, that is how you communicate that message and after you have developed a level of rapo. And again, John, share your experience on this particular thing. I have seen in my experiences that there is a huge amount of people who are coachable, and there are there is a s small subset of people who are not coachable. Right. And if they are lacking that insight, then I think they require bigger and bigger lessons to come to them before finally they realize that something is not right.

Absolutely. And that's that's one of the things that I'm always so proud of. We have three teenagers in our home. And whether they're involved in athletics or theater, one of the things I always make sure to congratulate them on is when a coach or a teacher or director says that they're coachable. I say that is the most important thing feedback that you can get. Right? Because a someone who's a good player or performer but isn't coachable and quite frankly isn't a lot of fun to be around, if you know what I mean. They set themselves up for so much difficulty and an eventual heartbreak. I see it all the time with the I work a lot with doctors of chiropractic care across the world. And time and time again when we talk about them having an A-level player in the office, one of the things that we really need to coach them on is don't worry about how much experience they have being a chiropractic assistant. You don't need someone who's had 15 years doing that. You need to have someone with the right disposition who is coachable. Because if you have that can connect with your patients, you can teach them all the other stuff, right? If they're coachable and have the right disposition.

That is so true. That is so true. Yeah. John, it's it's been a really, really inspiring conversation with you. We know that we are coming to the end of the hour, but before we go, I really want you to crystallize your experiences across your work at NASA with your photo photography career and coaching, about what are the most what are the top three things you would share with the audience, with the with the listeners, how they can lead a meaningful life.

Yeah, I love I love that question. And it goes back to how we started the conversation where I never wanted to set goals. So one of the one of the six checkpoints for success I talk about in my elite action framework is legacy. And so much we think about legacy is like a rear-word-facing thing. Like we get to a point in our life, what's the legacy we left? True, but that legacy is being built hour by hour, minute by minute of our life experience. So we need to have an understanding of where we want to be, whether it's with our finances or with our relationships, with our professional development. We want to have this North Star. Yeah, yeah, you gotta have that North Star because not to get bogged down in all the details of how to get there, you need to have that so as you're doing the work, you can look up and course correct, like we've talked about a couple times. Because if you don't have that, you're just kind of out there rudderless. Like when we when I was working on missions that were going to Mars, like we knew where Mars was going to be, and then they would back up. When do we have to launch? What's the trajectory it has to be on? Where do we want to land on the planet? When's our cutoff to change that trajectory? But they always knew the final outcome. And that enabled us to start taking those small, consistent actions, and then once we learn more, of course, correct. So understanding where that is, and it doesn't have to be detailed, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just gives you something to start. So as you're going through life, you have an idea of where you want to go. And a great exercise to get people started. One of my mentors, Tim Hahn, taught me this. He said, if you really want to live your life in a way that you will be proud of, sit down and take some time and write down a letter as if you're writing a speech that someone's going to be giving at your hundredth birthday party. What are the things you would want someone? He said, pick someone specifically, like do you want your child, do you want your spouse? Do you want your coach? Do you want your like your football coach or anyone? Who is going to be reading this? Be specific. And then think about what are the things you want them to say. And then now you have that as a filter to run all your decisions through and say, Will this help me live the kind of life that is going to have a story like this told about me at my hundredth birthday party?

Very, very important to know the destination. You know that you are going to land in Mars and then work backwards, backwards from there. Yeah, that's so important.

Yeah, and also knowing where you're starting from. Like everybody uses GPS now, right? But even if you're even if you're going back to the sailing days when they were doing navigation by the stars, yes, you needed to know where you wanted to end up, but what's the other piece of important information? Where you are now. And again, not from a place of judgment, but that gives you a solid point to realize, okay, if I want to get there and I'm starting here, now at least I can start taking those steps. And what's the best way to get where you want to go as quickly as possible? Unless the help of someone who's done it before. Like people don't climb Mount Everest by themselves. They hire a guide that can show them the way to show them the most efficient way to get there, to be like, hey, that's dangerous there. Don't do that. Right? So find the guide, find mentors, find coaches, find people that have made the journey. And if you are on your journey, don't forget to turn back around and help the people that are following you. You don't have to be at the end of your journey. If you're further ahead than someone else, it's our duty, it's our responsibility. It's actually an honor to reach back and help the people that are behind us to on their journey.

So true. I mean, this is this is so important, John, and it really shows up in all areas of my life. The mentors, the friends, the coaches who have helped me. And you asked me earlier this question that how do I do this? Even the podcast, apart from being a full-time doctor, is just a team. I have a very, very good team who helps me to do it. And that is if we surround ourselves with the people with values, with complementary values, with complementary strengths, and are complementary to our weaknesses, and then we can really create something big. John, it's been really exciting and inspiring to speak with you. When I was reading about you, I was thinking of a challenge that how am I going to cover so much in such a short time? But the insights you have shared are really truly remarkable. Truly remarkable. And I know we have not covered everything, and hopefully our paths are going to cross again. If the listeners want to reach out to you, what is the best way to share this amazing, inspiring?

Oh thank you, Ash. I really appreciate the time. I appreciate that question. So there are not that many John Mallora's in the world. So if you go to Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, all the things, just John Mallora. And a gift for your listeners is I have a free masterclass. It's called the Navigators, where I talk about the navigators, which are specific questions you can ask to shift out of autopilot and into awareness and also from judgment to curiosity, whatever wherever you find yourself, how to get into the secret mentality. So if you go to John Mallora, J-O-H-N-M-O-L-L-U-R-A.com slash free stuff, it's right there and it's a free gift. It just comes right to them and gives them that insight to how to shift out of you know being a drifter, being in blamer mentality, how to get out of that critic mentality, and how to shift out all three of those to be that seeker that's going to get us to where we want to go.

Thank you so much for that gift, John. I really appreciate that. Really appreciate your time. and thank you so much for joining us on Transforming Stress with Dr Ash.

Thanks so much, Ash. Thank you.

If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd greatly appreciate it. If you could leave a five-star review, a like, or subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Your support helps us reach more people. And let's try to comment. We'd love to see your support. So have we written up to find that we're next time?