Work-related Stress : The Indian Dilemma

Welcome to the podcast, Jain. Doctor, thanks for inviting me here. And it's a very great honor to have this conversation with you. So myself, I've completed my graduation and postgraduation in yoga itself. Doctor, as you know, since a long time we have been working for the last two years. And before that, Doctor, even my family background is into the yoga, Vedanta, Ayurveda, and stuff. In a way, I can say that it's already in the genetics. And somehow I have chosen the path again towards the academic sense. So I've completed my graduation and post-graduation in yoga itself. And then I started working with the psychosomatic disorders as a therapeutical or integrative medicinal practice. I use yoga, nutrition, coaching to help the people achieve their goals over suffering with the psychosomatic disorder. That's all from my end doctor.

That's very fascinating, Jayendra, what you are doing. And some of the stress has risen to that level that we can call it toxic stress. And recently we had the unfortunate death of Anna Sebastian, who was working in a corporate culture and unfortunate because of the high levels of stress as reported in the media. So I wanted to know from you that in India, what is the situation in the work environment? Because as a yoga practitioner, you must be seeing this as not isolated incidents in people, but in a more generalized way.

Definitely, Doctor. Thanks for that. It's a very tragic incident that is not a new thing in India, especially in the corporate doctor at all. So this particular case came out a lot and it got a lot of attention because of the social media, and even her mother put a case on the company because of the heavy work from the manager side, she has a very stressful night. She had never slept well. she slept just for four or five hours in a day. So these are all the things her mother claimed, and because of that, the heart attack came and she suddenly died. So this came out, and a lot of mysterious incidents are there in the corporate world, which are not coming out. So, as an Indian, I have experienced these kind of corporate situations a lot where the boss is trying to take the complete control over the employee. And a practical experience is doctor, if let's say somebody is trying to leave at six o'clock, which is the logical time, which is the legal time to leave the company, which is the agreement. So the agreement is between 9 to 6, that is the agreement. 9 o'clock you come and 6 o'clock you leave, that is the agreement. But if somebody is trying to leave at 6 o'clock exactly after finishing his work, that seems like a guilt. So the environment has created a guilt in the people, and you know, people are unable to say no to that, so they have to stay till 6:37, 8 o'clock, and then from there, metropolitan cities have traffic, 8 o'clock, they leave, then reach the home at 9:30 or 10 o'clock in the evening. So this is how the life is happening. You can imagine they're leaving at morning, 7 o'clock, they're coming back to home at 9 o'clock. And if the family condition is good, then he can relax. If the family condition is not good again, that's a huge stress level up. So, this is the practical thing which is happening in the country. I can say 70 to 80 percent of the people are suffering with this doctor, because I have seen a lot of students in the past eight years of my teaching experience and practice experience, more than thousand, fifteen hundred students have seen 80 to 90 percent of the people are having this issue, and that got into their blood completely. Even for example, let's if I say that why can't you come at six o'clock to the home? Why can't you deny them? They will be like, no, no, no, no, how can we deny the environment? Is like that. We have to accustom to the environment. So, in a way, what it is leading, doctor, the it is leading to the psychosomatic disorder, stress, anxiety, depression, whatnot, you know better than me. So it's a it's a very bad situation here in the corporate world.

India now tops the burnout chart in the world. Recent articles and media coverage say that India has become the burnout nation in the world. Would you agree with these statistics, Chane?

I do agree with the statistics, sir, because the current environment is like that in almost all the metropolitan cities. So I think this is absolutely true, sir. the statistics were absolutely on to the point.

Earlier, Japan and the United States were top countries in the world in burnout, and now last year, India has become one of the top nations in the burnout. What do you think are the reasons of that high levels of toxic, may I call toxic stress and the chronic stress? What do you think in your experience, Jayendra, you have worked in the multinational companies and now you have transitioned as a yoga teacher? What in your experience is such high levels of stress?

First thing is an excessive workload is there in almost all the corporate culture. There is a huge excessive workload over the people. I can see that picture in your workbook also, that we put a lot of load on the donkey, the back of the donkey in the cart, and the cart went down and the donkey lifted up. So that is one of the best examples you have shown us in the workbook that excessive workloads are. you know, let's say let's calculate this in monetary terms. let's say somebody's an average Indian salary, let's say 30,000 per month, and the entire company, the entire corporate, will expect you to work for 60 to 70,000 rupees, which is double the double his salary price. So I think that is one of the leading factors which is causing stress in the employees.

And do you think that the problem is only in the excessive workload, or there are other areas where there is unrealistic expectations of the employees? the work culture could be toxic. And also, Jayendra, we need to also understand that the employees themselves need to understand that is there any part of them they want to shift?

Yeah, absolutely, Sadra. There is an issue with the work-life balance in India, especially, you know, people are educated in a certain way that they have to completely mingle in the work culture. Even though if you want to take rest, you know, the kind of psychological aspect comes to your mind that you should not work, you should not take rest, you should work hard more and more, more and more. So that is the kind of psychology we grew up in those kind of psychological crisis. So, because of that, and moreover, there is an excessive workload, there is definitely a work-life balance is there. Recently, I read an article in the Quora. Quora is there, right, sir. So in the Quora, somebody asked, What is the most disgusting decisions you made in your life? And a person replied to that mail to reply to that question that I'm a 45-year-old employee who is working in the corporate culture, and my son's birthday is there on a Monday evening. So we organized a huge party at 7 o'clock. I have enough money because of my corporate work, and but still I'll be very busy. So I reached home at 9 o'clock in the night, and till then my son's birthday is completely over, everybody went away. So my wife arranged it. So that time I felt one of the bad decisions I made in life is to prioritize my work entirely. So I'm not at all giving the time to the family at all. So my son was crying, my wife was crying because I was not there for his birthday. So then I've decided to start the work-life balance. So this is just a one story, sir. someone written in the Quora, a random person, I don't know whether it's true or not. But looking at the circumstances in India, doctor, this thing is absolutely true, and we can see this in every other household. The same thing. There is no work-life balance at all. He is the person who is working is completely mingled into the work only, even though he comes from out of the office, he enters into the home, but still something is going on is in mind. Okay, what we have to do in the next, what you have to complete now, what so all these things will lead to no work-life balance.

So there is a lack of lack of good boundaries in the person.

Yeah, absolutely, sir, absolutely. And unfortunately, the country, some 100 and 500 years ago, where it knows how to control the mind, where it doesn't have any greed, where they don't know what is boundary. Unfortunately, now the same country is on the topmost priority in the in the work-life balance. There is no work-life balance, there is huge stress improvement, is there? So this is a very unfortunate thing, sir, that India is leading this.

We need to talk more about what are the strategies that we can help people moving forward. So I discussed with you that I have worked on this in the last 10 years specifically on creating a framework where individuals understand that how they are affecting the environment and how the environment is affecting them. So we discussed about the boiling frog analogy that the slow stress can kill us. We are seeing young heart attacks, we are seeing young patients with stroke, we are seeing young patients with cancer. Have you seen in your experience, Jayendra?

People, I have seen a lot. I have seen a lot. Almost 70% of my students are having the issues with the stress.

Okay, so what we have created here is a framework that people understand that first they need to develop the self-awareness to understand how their body is feeling and responding to stress. They become aware of their values, their core values, they become aware of their top trend, they have the discipline to have regular reflection, they take complete ownership and accountability of their life, and then they build their resilience, a thick skin, thick skin to deal with any challenges. And then we go into the next third section of the book, which talks about a framework of environmental management. If the temperature is increasing, for example, a colleague or a boss with whom you have conflict increases the temperature. What are the strategies to decrease the temperature of the water? And I created something known as the jacuzzi effect, where now the boiling frog environment is converted into a comfortable, relaxing jacuzzi. You don't need to die or like a boiling frog. And finally, if the environment assessing whether the environment, the organization is serving your own value or not. And if not, do you need to reinvent your path?

Do you need to reinvent your I think Doctor, that's a great invention and a great writing also from you. these kind of books and these kind of work should be given to the students who are in their graduation, especially in India. That is very, very required. That these coaching should be given in the graduation time, not only in the healthcare sector, doctor, in the IT industry, in the commerce, in the economics, everywhere, whatever the industries are there. So every student who are doing this should be trained well with this the boiling frog effect, the Zaccuzzi effect, and all this stuff. So once they get out of their institution to enter into the corporate sector, they'll be much more aware of the environment. So once they become bosses, their environment will be much more cleaner.

One of the things is Jayendra, that one of the five, one of the top causes of burnout in India is a toxic work culture and pressure to overperform. Would you agree with that?

Yes, sir. There is a lot of issues with the overperformance, which is above the expectation level. So expectation level is up to some extent. But whereas in Indian work culture, the expectation is over. We need more, we need more, we need more. Not in not in one company or one corporate doctor, it's in every company. It's with every company. Recently, we were discussing also on this a very huge entrepreneur and a very old entrepreneur who is asking to work for 70 hours in a week, so which is which is very unfortunate. and the Indian youth have reacted to that. That if you if you would like to work us for 70 hours a day, you have to increase the pay also. The pay is quite less for that 70 hours of work. So that is if we can understand, Doctor, if a huge entrepreneur has that kind of mentality, you can think of the startups, you can think of the basic in corporates, or what is their mentality, which few fundings they are expecting to work more than the funding, double or triple the funding which they got.

So Jayendra, you are trying to you are you are saying that some one of the entrepreneurs or whosoever is this person says that somebody is everybody is expected to work 70, 80 hours, whatever. I haven't heard of it. I don't follow the news very much. But one thing I understand that you know entrepreneurs they create a business which is in their own value, their own hierarchy of values, their own inner lighthouse. So if they work 80 hours, 90 hours, 100 hours, whatever, that work does not feel like work because it's in their highest value, that work is flow. Whereas to have that expectation that everybody should be working that amount is an unrealistic and insensitive expectation because the other person, the employee, might not share the same value for many. And correct me if I'm wrong, that job might be a means to an end or one of the means to an end that they are coming to work nine to five or whatever, they I have other responsibilities in their life. So, such expectation of anybody that if I am working X amount of time, the other person should also do that, is an insensitive expectation. 100% because each of us, so sorry to interrupt you, each of us has a different hierarchy of value, and I teach that in my fourth section, which is the value management, the value management, our own inner lighthouse, our own inner lighthouse, and each of us, like a thumb print or a retinal print, it's very unique. So, to project or my values on somebody or somebody projecting to me is a lack of sensitivity, and it will only result in stress in the individual. So I agree with what the statement you have made that if somebody expects you to work 80-90 hours, that might not be the reality of the other person.

100%, Doctor. as you said, the toxic work culture and this kind of things, right, sir, over expectations. So I have two experiences, doctor, on myself. One is first, I'll tell you the scenario of my one of my closest friends that he is quite interested in movies. You know, he wants to act, he wants to produce movies and stuff. the financial constraints are there, of course, but he studied the commerce accounting, and then he trained in the IT, information technology, computers, and stuff for a year, and then forcefully he's doing a software engineer job, being a graduate of a commerce. So just because of money, doctor, nothing else. So he's regularly going to the office, you know, logging in, typing in the computer, work is done, coming back to home, eating and sleeping. That is what he complained exactly, Doctor. So, whatever the values he had in the mind, he is unable to reach there because he is not aware of how to reach there and the confidence is not there in him. Third thing is, of course, always financial constraints. This is the thing, sir, doctor. And the second experience which I had is even in the last company where I was working, I was offered a very big position in the company and a bit of hike in the salary also, but my stream is completely going to change. As I'm a yoga therapist, I would highly love to teach as much as I can rather than managing a team. So I was hired as a yoga coach, and then I was got offered to become a managerial position, you know, but to be a team lead or a manager kind of thing. So I just wanted to give it a try, how it works and stuff. So, two months I was in that position, and then I thought, Doctor, as you said, the value stopped me completely that the managerial position is not for me, even though I'm doing good, but this is causing me a lot of stress because that is not up to my standards or not up to my values, and then I decided to leave that. now again, I'm back to teaching. It's been two and a half years, I'm highly stress-free. So these are the two experiences.

Your values were not resonating with the values of the environment, or your values were jarring with the environmental or the cultural or the organizational values, and you were feeling that friction, that those negative emotions, and they were giving you the feedback that it is not the right environment for you. And Jaendra, you reinvented your path. You are you are you had the courage to reinvent your path and move into the wellness sphere and become a yoga teacher and a corporate coach to see how you can be in an environment and be able to live your highest value. So, well done for that. Congratulations, and I've seen that you've been thriving in your own environment. You are contributing to so many teachers all around the all around the world, and it's been a real joy to work with you, Jayne.

Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.

Now, before we complete today, we talked about excessive workload, we talk about lack of work-life balance, lack of managerial support. I would like you to give some insights, share, share some insights about the lack of managerial support and how that can also be very eroding and distressing to the employees and the workers.

First thing, Dr. Dyes, I already mentioned previously also that the environment they grew up, let's say a manager is not necessarily an elder one, but a manager is a bit senior to the subordinate in most of the cases, whatever in the corporate. So they grew up in an environment where okay, you have to force them to work, you have to bring the complete output from them. Otherwise, this manager's boss is not going to leave this manager. So, this kind of environment they grew up, doctor. So the root cause is awareness and education, doctor. As you said, you know, as I already told that these kinds of books are absolutely necessary in this nowadays society, and everybody should be given the coaching in their graduations itself, in their studies itself, so that they would be able to overcome that. So once they'll get into that doctor, so the managing support, they'll give it to the employee, the employees will be able to cope with it.

Yeah, so Jayendra, thank you for sharing those very important insights. My recent book, The Boiling Frog Workbook, is about the chronic stress in the work environment. If you have heard the analogy of the boiling frog, if we throw a frog into the hot water, it will jump out. But if you throw a frog into cold water and slowly increase the temperature so slowly that the frog does not even recognize it, and slowly and slowly the frog is adapting to it till the time it loses complete control and is boiled to death. Chronic stress is very similar. It is very similar, like the boiling frog analogy, that it goes under the skin, it is under the skin, it is unrecognized, and slowly a person develops, as you said, different kinds of psychosomatic autoimmune diseases. It could be diabetes, it could be hypertension, it could be mental health issues like depression, anxiety, stress-related mental health issues, and it is slow, so slow that sometimes a person might not even recognize it. But in the in the boiling frog framework, I've written in the book based on 30 plus 30 plus years experience as a doctor, how you can manage it. The management starts from self. How you can, first of all, know what's happening in your own body starts with mindfulness, developing yoga, yogic practices. Because if you are not aware of what your body is telling you on a continuous basis, your body is giving you signals and you are overriding those signals, one day that will take a form of much bigger problem. I know you mentioned about corporate culture. What are the different kinds of challenges in the corporate culture that it is creating this level or chronic and high levels of stress?

Yeah, absolutely. That's a that's an amazing. Question, Doctor. It will open up a lot of things when you ask this. First thing is, Doctor, the financial issues in the country is touching the peaks, you know, you know, rising in the crisis, rising the rates of the things and stuff. So, of course, employment is generating much better than before, but still, there is a lot of financial issues because India is a developing country. Let's say the environment is not good in the corporate culture, the employee cannot leave the company just because he needs money every month. So that is the first thing, doctor. He they cannot leave because of the financial issue. They are back up in a drop. The frog doesn't know that it's in a drop, as you said. So they are in a drop. Right, right. Yeah. And second thing is, doctor, the entire education system which you had, even you studied in India to some extent. I have studied completely in India. So the education system is designed in a certain way that you have to be the slave of somebody else, not to be your own boss or your own entrepreneur. So the teaching is not there. So even though if you want to start something as an entrepreneur, if you want to become a boss, the society will keep a threat to you and they'll put pull you back and go and do the job. In Hindi, we say that Gulami Bano, Malikmat Bano, Gulami Bano, that is what the entire education system teaches. So, second thing is that so because they can't come out of the company, the financial issues are there, and third biggest thing which you have to address for us is they don't know how to be in the environment and they don't know how to manage the environment. So, first two things is not in our hands absolutely because if one is for the country, second is for the education system, and it includes a lot of politics, everything, and the stuff is not in our hands. Only thing which is in our hands is the management, how to identify the environment, self-management and stuff, which you have to address as.

So, Jayendra, you mentioned about the cultural conditioning, and the other thing is that people do not have all the skills to manage the environment. One of the things you mentioned, I would like to reframe it as value management, how one becomes aware of their own inner most core values, and when we decide whether they are able to live their values in that particular environment. There are two kinds of values. One is an individual's own value, or these are these the values which are injected by the society or cultural conditions. So many things you mentioned that there are several factors, including the cost of living, including the financial trap, including the kind of cultural expectation. And we will discuss this for our listeners in our upcoming podcast because each of these topics are so big in itself that we have to go into the details to be able to do the justice. Now, in my book I was sharing with you yesterday, the first step starts with self-management. The second is how do you develop the resilience? Third section is about the environmental management. If the if the if the water is boiling, can you convert down the temperature and make it a like comfortable jacuzzi? Finally, the value management is knowing your value. Are your values being served in an environment? How can you ensure that? How can you ensure your psychological safety? How can you assess and find out what is the values, what are the values of the company or organizations you have or organization you're working? Finally, what is your own innermost purpose in life and whether you are able to meet that purpose in that particular environment? We try our best with all these skills, but sometimes we might realize that we are in a toxic environment. And in that kind of situation, when we realize that we are in a toxic environment, then we need to think of recreating our path. Like if you allow me to say that you have recreated your path, and I would love for you to share if you want for our listeners that how you have recreated your path, and you feel so much more happy now with what thanks for that.

And I would love to express this, Doctor, because maybe my experience can be a lesson to somebody else. So definitely I would like to say, but without the company's name for sure.

Sure, of course, of course. We just need we in one of my other philosophies is we do not have a blame and shame approach, we have an approach of taking complete control, extreme ownership, Jaendra, extreme ownership and complete accountability. So we don't need any names, we don't need shame and blame. We take control of our own lives and we make our own decisions, we make our own choices to live our own destiny.

So, yeah, but I don't need the name of the I started working in a proper corporate sir in a metropolitan city, it's a huge city, and then just like the boiling frog analogy, first two, three months was quite beautiful. people are working from home. initially they started claiming that this is just work from home, you don't need to go to company, you don't need to come to the office. So we started working from home, and usually I'm that kind of person, sir, a kind of gi that I can melt it, melt in any particle, whatever you feel. So I'm basically fluid and flexible to all the things. So they have started asking to come to the office. So I took a route near to the office and I started traveling in the huge metropolitan city in the traffic and stuff there. So once we reach the office, there within a few days the waters started boiling slowly, slowly. You know, they are hiring a lot more employees, and they are started firing the other employees. And you know, as a manager, I am the one who has to say that you won't be there in the company for a longer time. So the person who am I firing, because that's my order from the boss, I can't deny that because that's not my company. And my teammate or the person who is working for me, working with me, I need to say to them that you are not in the company anymore. And that is so stressful for me, doctor, because he will be having kids, he'll be having his own family, he has his financial issues, and without any cars, you're just firing them, is the huge stressful thing.

So I started somebody, sorry to interrupt you. So somebody else is getting you to do the dirty job. They are they want to get your hands dirty to do this.

Absolutely, absolutely, doctor. But of course, I am saying them that the company is not agreed to your work and we have to fire them. They are very good, close colleagues to me. They understood that, but the kind of stress I developed inside me that you know, because of me, they are losing their job, they're losing their financial freedom, everything they are losing. So I started getting accustomed to the environment, sir. I tried a lot. I used to stay at nine o'clock, ten o'clock. Sometimes I used to blame myself that am I giving my best or I'm not giving my best. That's why the conditions are like this. So I started blaming, you know, sir, a kind of manipulation. It's a you can't even see the manipulation, but that's a psychological manipulation which goes deeper roots of the mind, and you can't realize that. So I started blaming, and finally I decided one day that this is definitely not my cup of tea. And my family is a very huge support to me. That if you want to learn, you have to learn something. So, only thing when I say I'll resign, my question to myself, sir, that I need to learn more with this environment, you know, because we grew up in that situation that even the issues are coming. We need to be stay there and we need to learn all those things. So, in that mindset, I started telling myself that okay, I have to learn. Then my family said you have to learn, but you have to learn something happily. Then I decided I have to resign this. With after my resignation, within two months, the company is closed. it's not because of me, but because of its own toxicity.

Yeah, Jain, that was a very authentic conversation we've had. You made a choice, you made a decision to move on and recreated your life with your own values. Thank you for joining me today in the transforming stress. You are truly an example of somebody who transformed the stress, and it's been really joyful. Thank you for honestly sharing your experiences, Jayendra. It's been a real joy. And if the listeners want to connect with you, what is the best way they can do so?

So they can connect with me in Instagram and all the social media handles, sir. It's Jayendra Ipili, is my social media handle, and all the name is the same in every social media.

Okay, I will add it at the link below. And until we meet next time, stay well, my friend, and thank you so much.

Thank you, thank you.

Thank you for tuning in to Transforming Stress with Dr Ash. If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd greatly appreciate it if you could leave a five-star review, a like, or subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Your support helps us reach more people looking to transform their stress into new comfort. We'd love to hear your thoughts, so don't forget to comment and share. For more tips and updates, please be sure to check out our social media links in the description box below. We can't wait to have you with us next time as we continue this journey towards turning stress into resilience. Remember, it's not the stress itself, but how we rise above it that defines our strength. So stay resilient and keep thriving, and we will see you next time.