The Hidden Stress of Healers – A Conversation with Mubarak Mansoor Ali 🎙️

So welcome to the Plasphum and Squest Dr Ash podcast. And today I am delighted to introduce and welcome Mr. Mubarak Mansour Ali. Mubarak is an experienced psychologist with an extensive experience in mental emotional health. He's passionate about empowering individuals, help them improve their resilience, and have well-being at work. Mubarak, I am so delighted that you have joined us today. Thank you so much for that.

Thank you so much, Dr. S. Thank you so much. It's really an honor and a pleasure to be on your platform and to contribute whatever I can. I always say that I'm just a humble aspect of trust drifting through the universe trying to make a difference. So heavy are and such an amazing, amazing profile that you have, and your dedication to improving the life of individuals is really commendable. And I hope that your listeners and viewers, whoever is going to view this podcast, will have something, something to change their life.

No, I would just share with you that how I came to know. I have been following you on the LinkedIn, and the way you have simplified the concepts of mental health, emotional health is really very inspiring. So congratulations for that, and thank you for the amazing work you are doing in this area, Mobart. I would love to start with our and our listener listeners would love that to know about your journey where you have reached here and you are empowering individuals in these areas.

Well, that's quite surprising. Probably I have, I believe, a decent network on LinkedIn, but I never shared it there. Or probably I would just say probably comment, but not share it there. But surprisingly, actually, I have a background of performing arts. I have professionally studied performing arts for three years. I have a professional degree, I have done theater and TV for a decade, and then in 2015, something happened, an event that actually changed the course of my life, and it was a calling, and psychology called me, and I started studying psychology in September 2016. And a couple of degrees later, here I am serving in a prestigious institute in a hospital and trying to make a difference. So I believe in bridging the gap and simplifying concepts. Definitely for lame and a person who is going through something, won't be able to understand jargons and terminologies. And that's why I believe in simplifying. And I call this speaking in clients' language, we're speaking in a language which clients or patients or normal people would understand. So that's why I try to experiment and simplify concepts of daily life or whatever pressing, and often you will see where I just post me stupid or humorous post as well, because that's a part of life as well, that's therapeutic as well. So, yeah, I just I just try. I just try, that's it.

No, it's it's amazing, inspiring work, and talking about humor, that is very important, especially from the right brain perspective. again, as you as an artist, as a performance artist, you would know that our right brain is activated and it increases the it increases the awareness. So, Mabara, today we are going to talk about work-related stress, work-related child challenges. So, would love to start hearing your experiences, what kind of clients or patients you have, and what kind of challenges they come with. I know it's a huge area, but we want to go through the common things and then discuss the strategies to empower individuals.

Yeah, in terms of that, I believe I have a very diverse experience. I primarily work in acute and rehab setting because that's what my current work setting is. But since COVID, I have an experience of working with the health professionals, not just health professionals, but other professionals as well, throughout the world. And in America, Canada, Europe, UAE, I believe in except for Africa, all the regions as far as I remember. I worked with healthcare professionals, management, marketing, creative, and I have worked at CA, worked with CEO level or director level patients as well, or clients as well. So one of the things is that since COVID, I believe before COVID as well, since COVID, our world is so rapidly changing and it is so rapidly developing that it's at times it's very difficult to keep the pace. Just gonna because obviously I'm from the healthcare sector of UK. Just give an example, NHS is bringing some major changes in terms of how NHS is structured in terms of mental health risk, crisis intervention houses, and other interventions. It's some sort of transforming AE for mental health professionals or neurodiverse professionals. And at times it's very difficult to keep up with the challenges because the case load is very, very, very high and it's not going down. And at the same time, you have to obviously perform as well, you have to make sure that you're doing a job and that this help for satisfaction. So these factors actually end up being a stress. And what I have observed, especially in health and care professionals, that often we are actually not allowed to accept or realize or acknowledge that we can be stressed, or we can have depression, or we can have anxiety, or we can have panic. Because I have had a lot of cases, a lot of cases, that people actually told that you are a mental health professional, you are a doctor, you are a nurse, or you are a support worker, you actually do all these things. Just go, just go and manage your own self. And that's way that's way actually demeaning and dehumanizing, I would say. So these stresses with changes and at times lack of support and lack of resources available or acknowledgement or acceptance actually lead to this burnout, stress, and other mental health or mental illnesses related issues.

What are the common what are the common mental health issues you see in the healthcare professionals?

Stress. Stress major, stress, burnout, anxiety, depression, and at times I have seen I've actually seen mania and bipolar as well, because it triggers something, psychosis, psychosis not really that much, but psychosis as well, and at times PTSD as well.

So Mubarak, will it be reasonable to say that in our current healthcare system and environment, there are a lot of triggers in the environment. And these triggers can per se challenge people who have these issues in the background, or they can they can develop these issues because they haven't learned to manage the stress very effectively. What are your thoughts about this?

Exactly, exactly. I was saying I would say I would I would obviously second that. I don't remember the exact reference, but World Head Organization says that every one in four people have clinical level mental health issues or any such mental health issues. Coming from a stress diathesis model, not going into terminology, we all have something, right? But distraction or family or socialization or work actually keep us going. It's called high functioning, high functioning, depression, anxiety, stress, or a lot of different things. And it all takes as just a simple trigger or cue or just one that rice or grain, a grain of rice that actually just ships the whole board over. So unfortunately, we all have a lot of things. We all carry a lot of trauma, especially those who are working in healthcare professionals. We care, we I believe that we are actually the carriers. We are actually the human carriers of the stories and traumas and sadness and grief and a lot of things. And we need to learn and practice how to actually manage and cope and process that on a regular basis. And unfortunately, I believe that our training usually does not cater these things.

Training does not cater these things.

Exactly, exactly. A training, a curriculum, as far as I have studied and understand curriculum, UK, USA, and other countries. Yes, we don't teach these things to our students at the internship level or at the placement level or at the residency level. And that's why it sometimes it becomes very late because obviously confidentiality and I cannot share, but I have worked with some very, very, very top-level NHS and other healthcare professionals as well in UK, and it was just a simple, simple, simple, very, very minor triggers, which you must say that it happens to everyone, but maybe someone is not meeting that threshold of coping or management. So it's all around us. But the point is that how we are managing and sometimes it just gets us.

Mubak, have you heard of the boiling frog analogy?

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I've heard that, and I believe it's one of the most interesting ones in all the education, interesting intellect and wisdom and philosophy. And it's very important to understand in every walk of life that I was saying.

Yeah, I read about this around 2015 or so, and reading a medical journal article comparing the healthcare environment to a boiling frog environment where the stress is chronic and insidious. Yeah, people cannot see this stress, and also there are several triggers in the environment. Yeah, and it makes it challenging, and people are coming to work, they have got a smile on their face, but you always do not know what's going what's going behind under the surface, what's going behind under the surface? So, first of all, I mean, where do you start? Because the magnitude of the problem is really large. What is what are your strategies you ask your clients, or when you see this happening to your colleague, what is the starting point?

Before starting point, I would I'll be share one of the examples. And one of my I was actually there in that meeting in my back in my country back home. It's one of the major hospitals in my country, and we are actually working on society prevention projects. So one of the doctors was actually attending meeting from home. And the chair of that meeting actually made fun that you're the doctor, how can you take a sick leave? You should have been here. This is hospital. Actually, people come to the hospital to treat, and you are actually at home from hospital being a doctor, and everyone actually was laughing that even the person, obviously, you have to confirm with the society, right? And confirm with your team. And obviously, I smiled as well, but I actually felt weird that why a doctor, nurse, or psychologist, psychiatrist, or surgeon, or dentist, why they cannot be saying why they cannot have a sick leave. And top that note, a lot of companies do not even have sick leaves in healthcare setup. And that is something very surprising that I keep on hearing that they don't have a sick leave. They don't have a sick leave, which doesn't make sense. So, whenever obviously there are two kind of patients that I work with. First of all, the patient who are at the psychosis or mania stage, obviously for them, first you have to obviously manage the psychosis, and then obviously you can work on other things. And second, there's who are gerlinal neurosis or manageable state. So for those who are in manageable state, the first thing I always work with is acceptance. Accepting that you need help, accepting that you are stressed, accepting that you are anxious, accepting that you are at the edge, you are actually on the edge and you can just tip off the edge. So in reflective practice, often people just turn up because even if in reflective practice, people usually don't find time because they are they have some duty or they have some handover or they are with patient or they don't have time for that. But to those who attend, I just try to catch up with them whenever I feel that someone is at the edge or someone is on the tipping point. So, one of the most important things that I start with is the acceptance and realization that you have this thing and you can have this, you know, allowed to have stress or anxiety or any other thing or burnout, right? Such as we talk about emotions, that we should allow our emotions to exist and to fear, aggression, sadness, or whatever. We should allow our emotions to exist, and obviously we should work to work with them. Similarly, first stage, one of the most important things is acknowledgement, except in the second is developing a coping toolbox, a customized treatment plan. because we have like a whole world of strategies and in the world of AI, just give it a command, and AI will probably pop up like 50 coping strategies or 100 coping strategies, or probably just name. So you're gonna pop up as many coping strategies as possible. But the important thing is that one size doesn't fit all. So, what I try is that with the cause of profession, their life, their interest, I try to customize or tailor the coping strategies or interventions. That's the second stage, so they can have better they can manage their body and bodily symptoms and their physiology. And third level is the psychological level in terms of cognition. It can be re-education, reconstructive, or it can be any other level that is demanded or possible, but depending on the severity of these issues. So these are the different issues that definitely don't be work on relapse or management. So this is my general strategy that I use with the patient for these related issues.

In the healthcare, I see that there is a great amount of denial in the in the professionals.

Yeah.

And of course, things might not be in their cell in their awareness. So that is where your job would be to bring them to their bring it to their awareness and accept it. But do you also come across strong forces of resistance or denial that you know I can live with it again? There's a huge amount of conditioning which is behind this and stoicism in the culture, and the many, many threads might be there for this particular behavior. So, how do you go beyond that denial?

Yeah, that is unfortunately, I would say, very common because it's definitely culture in society as well, the societal expectation, culture expectation that you're a healthcare professional, how can you be safe? That's that's like even your healthcare professional, right? So, yes, that is culture in society as well, and then our unfortunately training as well. Because our training actually keeps us on the toe, and yes, there are policies, they are services, there are resources, but then it depends on the demand of the service and the caseload and a lot of different factors. If we are even able to practice that, that actually creates this ice wall or this wall, but and we cannot see beyond that wall, and that's when obviously the denial comes and these resistance comes that no, I cannot be sick or I cannot have any have any such issues. And I remember this one of the staff members. I actually felt that I was a s I was in a staff room and I actually saw that the staff member is very exhausted. Now just I asked them, how are you doing? Are you okay? And I was like, Yeah, I am like, no, I don't think you're fine. And that's like you are retired, you're going pale. I was like, no, I'm fine. Look at my talk, and he actually showed me his smart was look, I have done 18,000 steps today during this work and I'm gonna do 500 more. And it wasn't like jogging or any workout, it was it was only during his work or during his. I was like, I need to have a time with you. And obviously that staff member didn't accept, didn't agree. Obviously, some people can have stamina, but we are not talking about marathon here. We are talking about work culture. And it took some time, but then obviously the staff member realized that obviously this is something that may not be issued today, it may not be triggering me at the moment, but it can obviously trigger me one month from now, two months from now, three months from now. Because our work is fulfilling and it gives us adrenaline, it gives us dopamine shots, and it makes us happy that we are doing something very good and savior complex and other things. Actually, it creates the cloud around us, and then we are unable to see the sky or if it's night or day. So, yes, they are denial and resistance, so it's actually very difficult to actually work through the denial and resistance. But actually, you have to figure out and understand what the denial or resistance is about. Is it about the job? Is it about the expectations? Is it about the workload? Because I remember one of the cases, it was in my last shop where the patient who was a healthcare professional was not allowed to feel or allowed to have these kind of issues because they were lack of there were some resources-related issues, and that's that support worker or whoever that staff member was had to obviously portray that they are strong and they can do it because or else they afraid that they're gonna lose their job, or they're gonna obviously release from the job or they're gonna give suspension or anything. So there is this fear as well. So working through these things is difficult, but obviously understanding what's going on or what really happened, what really actually caused to this stage is really important, and then obviously we go to the next stage.

Thank you so much for those incredible insights. So the opposite of work-related stress and all kinds of mental health issues you have shared is engagement, how engaged the employee is Gallup studies, the Gallup studies are done yearly, and there are studies about work-related stress and engagement. And the studies show that around 70-75% people all around the world, across stressful professions, are feeling signs of stress daily at work. We see this in the healthcare also. Now, according to what I feel that work is something which we create over decades, few decades, and it's like a vehicle to help us fulfill all our six needs the need for security, the need for comfort, the need for variety, the need for love and connection, the need for significance, the need for growth, the need for growth, and the need for contribution. But what we are seeing that the studies are showing, and we know that a huge amount of population is feeling burnt out. And healthcare, you mentioned people are going on and on, and it's there is an excitement, there is a you know the dopamine, there is a cloud. So they are not even aware, like you said, that this person is walking 18,000 steps. Now, 18,000 steps will be around somewhere around 14, 15 kilometers or around eight miles or so. So that's the that's a huge amount of because I just did the London marathon last month. So there is lack of there is the lack of that awareness, and rather than work coming as a fulfillment, it is for many, it's an addiction.

Exactly.

It's rooted in addiction. I would love to know if you can share some insights that what is the root of this work as an addiction, overwork, and glorification of overwork to the point of in Japan, there is a term also for this. You know, Japan now Japan used to be the number one country in the world for work-related stress and work-related suicides. there is a term for that. It's I think as far as I recall, it's karaoshi. And karoshi is suicide by overwork or death by death by overwork. So, of course, people are going on and on and they do not have that awareness. So that is a very difficult problem to solve because the problem you are trying to solve in the person, the person doesn't even have the awareness of it.

Exactly.

How do where do we start in these kind of situations? And what are what are the roots of this addictive behavior the work as an addiction? You know what I'm trying to articulate here, definitely.

Yeah, definitely. to dig down deeper, one of the most important things is to understand why it happened. So whenever I work with any interne or any placemanist student, I always ask them to reflect over and over again why did you come to the field? Why do you want to become a psychologist? Why do you want to treat mental health patients? So, why do you want to work in this setting? And obviously, you can figure out why they are here. So, one of the major things that I have actually noticed that there is a savior complex, right? So we want to save someone, we want to protect someone, and that actually makes us feel happy. So, savior complex, I believe, is one of the most important factors that actually led to this feel.

Is it like the rescue or triangle you are referring to?

Or yeah, you can say the rescue triangle, yeah. It's kind of the same thing, but savor complex that we actually want to save people, but we have this complex that I'm the savior and I'm gonna save everyone, I'm gonna save as many people as you can. Transaction analysis addresses very, very, very interestingly, and transaction analysis is my favorite. I always say that everywhere, and it really helps you understand it better. apart from that, in new generation, or I believe in the most recent generations, I have actually seen that it's unusual, but they actually just popped up in medical field or in psychology and mental health field because of a fashion or a trend, because it sounds good and it's a good labor, that I'm a psychologist, or I'm studying mental health. And last job as well, I actually did this own survey. It was an informal one, but either the survey, the data to 90% issue of the students were only there because of these types or these social, I believe, social superiorities. Another issue, another problem is I believe that core issue is that this fear is actually usually joined to in order to just resolve their own unresolved issues. And it feels like that when we're gonna study mental health or the healthcare field that we are gonna treat ourselves, but at times it doesn't matter. it doesn't work like that. Yeah, and that is why I'm never afraid of and I'm never concerned of AI because I know that AI cannot replace a human in terms of healthcare field, especially in mental health. apart from that, Susal and other the are I believe our network, a closed network, how actually they treat us and how actually they make us feel about ourselves. But so whenever anyone has a mental health doctor or kind of a healthcare professional, professional status, in our cultures, I believe in our Indo-PARC or salvation cultures, they are actually treated as healers and they have a very superior status in the society. But that actually gives us dopamine shots and adrenaline and all of the good feelings. And regardless of how tired we are, when someone asks for help, we just pop off then. Oh, I'm gonna help you. So these are these are actually one of the major core issues that I have understand. And there are obviously a lot of solutions, understanding, acknowledging, accepting, creating boundaries, and one of the most important is learning to say no. Learning to say difficult, and yeah, another thing is putting your hat off. So in performing arts, obviously we learned a lot of things, and one of the things that our instructor used to teach us is that whenever we go home, just take off your actor's head or take off your director or writer's hat because you're not actual director there. So it's very it's very difficult when we are in the field and we're at the early stage to just detach ourselves or disconnect ourselves from the reality. We are just analyzing each and everyone down on the street or in train or tube or everywhere. So it's important to find your switch off button and switch it off and enjoy life for a while, especially when you are home, because your work should not follow you home. On this note, in my current job lead, I created this group at the hour of Friday in last hour. It's called decommissioning hours decompression hour. Sorry. So in that last hour, we decom we decompress whatever we are going through. Obviously, Friday last hour we're going home. So the purpose is that we don't carry anything back with us. So these kind of practices I believe is very important on organizational structure and for which we're definitely accepting and understanding, creating boundaries and give having a healthy coping mechanism. I'll I will give up a good example here in my last job. there was this verbing room, right? And what room? Well being room. Well-being room for staff members. Yes, not for patients, but dedicated for staff members. And I was quite surprised because I was in quite a few months in a job and I didn't know that. And I actually discreetly would just go to this verbing room, and I would hardly find anyone there. Hardly, hardly, hardly find anyone there in addresses with the management and clinical governance and other meetings and in other reflective practices that we know that there is a room with healthy coping strategies, but instead of that, we actually prefer addictive or unhealthy coping, numbing strategies.

Numbing strategies.

Yeah, most of the healthcare worker would take a stuff take a leave for any kind of unhealthy coping strategies such as smoking. Smoking and vaping is one of the most famous. You will see that they are just out there for smoking and they cannot survive without smoking. So healthy coping strategies at work as well, not only when you are stressed or when you are on the edge or when you are eating nine out of ten, but they're making it a lifestyle.

Very, very, very true. One thing I would like to share here in context in relation to what you just said, that people coming to the healthcare profession for the wrong reasons, they're they are not aware of their values, they are not aware of their core values, and when your own core values don't match with the values of the environment in both ways, both directions, that can create something known as a moral injury. Have you heard of the term is more very frequently used currently American health care? That what is happening to healthcare is causing moral injury or spiritual injury, where your own values of serving, caring, compassion are not being served in the environment for whatever policies and environments and organizations. Could you say something to that? When there is that kind of a value mismatch, how people should navigate that? I know that's not easy because somebody might have put sometimes a decade or more than that to come to this point and then come to if they come to realize that no what environment I am or the what the role I am doing is a mismatch. Have you been in this kind of have you seen these kind of scenarios?

Yes, I have I have seen quite a few people, a staff member of colleagues with this kind of scenarios. And what happened is that definitely there are policies and there are governing bodies and there are governing rules at code of ethics and other standard of practices by a lot of different organizations. They're there for a reason, right? And that a lot of people, a professional feels like rebelling them and know that these are not right and are gonna do this, are gonna do that. One of the reasons I find is attachment issues, their own personal attachment issues. And at times we get a staff member or people get too involved with the service user or patient, and actually they're unable to keep their own boundaries, boundaries of health, boundaries of profession and boundaries of care. So in that case, the moral and the personal or their values actually clash or collide, that this cannot happen, we cannot do this, and they obviously firing or conflicting in MDTs, Wadrant and other platforms. this is usual, and in that case, it's always important to understand again why we're doing that. And usually I've seen that it's the attachment issue because they don't know how to manage their own attachments, actually, especially with a service user, because there's a stuff called professional relationship, and there's a reason why it's called professional relationship. And there was this movie, I don't remember the exact one, but there was a school that you should never treat your patient like your friend, right? Because I don't think you can I don't think you can just cut a stomach or cut a chest of your friend just like her or your family member. There always should be a healthy boundaries. And in that case, well, then yeah, when there are no healthy boundaries, patient would obviously misuse the care or would try to abuse or manipulate staff members or professionals in other cases. So yeah, these are actually the core reasons. And yeah, I would say that one of the major reasons is actually attachments because we don't know how to actually detach.

Navigate the boundaries, navigate the boundaries.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Thank you, Mabal. now, one final question I would like to ask you in terms of the strategy to manage stress at work. What are the practical self-care strategies on a day-to-day basis, minute-to-minute basis that a person could do daily so that they are in tune, and not only are they managing stress, but they are also super engaged at work. They are having a sense of fulfillment whilst they are doing it, doing the work. I know this is healthcare, is it's going to be stressful. It's a stressful industry. Not that it's life, there's life and death, serious health issues, mental and physical health issues. I have worked in all kinds of environments, including accident and emergency, inpatient hospital, outpatient, you know, all kinds of challenges. It's a stressful industry. How, what are the practical self-care tools you can share Mubarak on a day-to-day, hour-to-hour, minute-to-minute basis that can empower the individuals?

Yeah. before coming to strategies, I often find this that a staff member overwhelmingly say that these service users are doing this, actually complain that service users are doing this, service users are doing that, they should behave like this and they should behave like this. And I just simply say that there's a reason why they're not at home or in community or at the job. They're here for a reason. And if they were doing normal, doing fine, they didn't have to come here. Right. So, kind of that there's this approach that I really like is solution-focused therapy, solution-focused approach. So that you are already doing something right, you just have to find out and do it more often. So, my robot strategies is reflection. Reflection is one of the most important things I believe you should do it in each and every single day when you are wrapping up work. I do it each and every single day. And when I'm prepping work, I have my last few minutes. I just reflect how the day was and if anything affected me, if anything was good, if anything was challenging for me, how I can navigate. And I actually prepare myself in terms of notes. I just send myself notes on my work computer or work laptop, not on my personal phone. Personal phone is for me. Yeah, and I just know that okay, these are the things that I can do tomorrow. Along with that, there are a lot of different strategies, such as for what you can do yourself is deep breathing for mindfulness and guided imageries and guided meditation and these things, which you can do at work, and it won't gonna take like hours and hours. You can just do it for a few minutes, or you can do it on a break. Another important thing is that I said to my stuff that whenever I have a break, I just go out to take a walk. And daily, each and every single day, regardless of if I was free at 12 or not, if I was free at 1 or not, even at 3 p.m. But I'm gonna take a I'm gonna go out and take a break. And if it's expression, if expression works for you, writing, drawing, coloring, or anything that works for you. So these kind of things, I believe this should be with us handy with each with in our offices, on a cubicles, or whatever kind of whatever workspace that we have. And we should have this mental checklist. Obviously, if it's difficult, you can start with a physical checklist. That did I do this today, or did I do this today, did I do this today? Because whenever because at times it is so overwhelming, and there's always some season that we are under staff, especially when you are leading a team, it's way difficult for you because team members are not bothered but you are bothered because you have to manage everything. So at times are so that I feel that what's missing today? Why I am agitated, why I'm anxious, and feel like, oh, I didn't have my afternoon walk, or I didn't have my walk today. Walk is my thing, I really like that. I just go out and take a walk. So it really works for me. So creating something or rituals, rituals, some rituals or some activities at work. Exactly, that works for you, but just making sure that it's not something numbing or it's not escape, but it's something healthy strategy. You're right, because I have usually said that majority of the staff member, I would say not in my current job, but generally I'm speak, speaking that we usually go out only for smoke and smoking or vaping. So there are a lot of healthy strategies you can do, right? And starting with reflection, reflect on your work and reflect in each and every day. well, I actually started with the morning as well. When I by when I was starting in the morning, work in the morning, I take 10 to 15 minutes, just wrapping up and checking everything, how's gonna tapy, and how I'm gonna manage if there's anything gonna be stressful, how I'm gonna manage that, how I'm gonna take my time, and if I'm very overwhelmed, I just and obviously I see my team as well. My the people that are working under me have said I take a time, go to go to any room and just take a time. Spend some time alone there, and obviously, if you need help, ask for help, seek out help. There's another very important thing in our meta-hair professional that we don't obviously in other as well, but we don't seek out others, we don't seek out others.

We don't seek out help, yes.

Yeah, whether feel like we'll be perceived as weak or we'll be perceived as unable to do our job, and we perceived as I cannot handle it anymore, I cannot manage it anymore. No, it's not like that. Everyone has that breaking point, and everyone has a right, everyone can be stressful, even I can be stressful. I am usually stressful. A lot of I just share that I'm in a way to transition in these coming months. In this month, so I'm anxious with a lot of different things, and even if I spent one and a half hour in the gym in the morning, I would take a shower and then go out for walk because walk is another thing, and gym is another thing, so it's a it's always a beautiful walk, walk with the coastline. So this is a thing that always works for me. So something is always there that is already working for you. Just find it and do it.

Thank you, thank you. Well, I fully agree with your thoughts. Creating rituals at work, activities which recharge you. I personally go for a walk. There's a lake inside the hospital, there are swans and ducks. I would take some food for them, keep the ducks and swans, and have my lunch there and do a little bit of a meditation. We all have to find what recharges us and take out any breaks. It could be literally four, five, ten minutes, and reflect about how the day has been and set up a positive intention. I know we are coming to the end of the hour. It has been really inspiring, insightful to speak with you. Any final message? I know there is a there might be at many times so much of stress, sometimes negativity, sometimes toxicity in the environment. One final message of hope, of resilience you would like to give to the listeners.

You are as important or as precious as you treat everyone else. So you're important, you're precious, and you have to take care of yourself, right? Regardless of what those are doing or not. You have to take care of yourself.

Absolutely. I think that is a very important point, and sometimes we miss a point as fundamental. Well, thank you so much, Mubarak. It's been really inspiring to have you on Transforming Space with Dr Ash Podcast. I'm very grateful for you to join. And if the listeners want to follow you, I know you have got a huge link in presence. Mubarak Mansoor Ali. Any other places where the audience can reach out to you?

That's actually only point they recently actually started similar on Facebook as well. So if obviously a lot of people were requesting me for Facebook, so I started that. So yeah, LinkedIn and save Facebook with the same handle.

Thank you. So thank you so much. Thanks again, and until we meet again.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was lovely speaking to you, and I hope that obviously people benefit. And to listeners, if you want to reach out to me, you can reach out to me for through my LinkedIn or my Facebook or just simple email address. I believe email address says on both the platforms.

Thank you so much for buying.

You're most welcome. You're most welcome.

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