Leading with Coaching: Transforming Workplace Culture with Luciana Nunez

Hi, welcome to the Transforming Stress with Dr Ash podcast. And today I've got a very distinguished guest, Luciana Nunez. Luciana, have I pronounced your name correctly? Perfect. Thank you, Dr Ash. Luciana has is a senior executive coach. She has got an extensive, extensive experience of more than two decades in coaching leaders, businesses. And recently she has published a book, Coaching Power. And Luciana, I have to say that it's a really great book. The frameworks are so simple, so amazing, and I'm really, really blessed to have you on the podcast. So welcome again to the Transforming Stress. And we am sure that we are going to share some amazing insights with the listeners. Thank you, Dr Ash, for having me. It's my pleasure. So, Luciana, I would like to start with that what developed your passion for coaching. You've been doing this for two decades, and you have done such an amazing and inspiring work. I would love to know more about your journey.

I'll be honest with you, my meeting with coaching happened a little bit by accident, and I'll tell you the story behind it. I'm a former corporate executive, and I did, you know, my career started in Argentina, then in Switzerland, then in the US. And in one of my corporate roles at the time at Danone, my boss at that point in time gave me a very clear brief. I had 3,000 people within my scope, and she said, I need you to upgrade the leaders. And I thought, how the hell do you upgrade 3,000 leaders from Mexico to Indonesia? And then after quite a bit of thinking and consulting, I decided it was going to be through coaching, and we're going to create a coaching culture so that leaders also coach each other into raising their profile and improving their performance. So the upgrade the leaders brief became my calling into coaching. And when I do something, I take it pretty seriously. So I became a coach. But to be honest with you, I thought that I would only add it as a repertoire into my leadership style as a corporate leader. I never thought that I would do it for a living. So fast forward to a few years ago when I decided to leave the corporate world and I wanted to do something on my own, but I wasn't sure what that was going to be. And eventually through a process that now, you know, I use with my clients, I decided to make coaching the center of what I do now in the second half of my life. And I do have to say it's the best job in the world. Sometimes it doesn't even feel like a job because a good day with a team when you see the transformation in front of your eyes is just fantastic. So that's a little bit the behind the scenes.

Wow. So it is the transformation you are able to see in the people you are working with and the clients you're working with.

100%. It's very powerful when you see it. I think it's a little bit different in one-on-one than it is with a team. With one-on-one, it takes usually a few months to see the transformation because you have a powerful session if things go well, of course. And then the client keeps working in between sessions. A big part of the work that we do is for the client to play with new frameworks, new, build new muscle, build new approaches to their leadership style. So it sometimes takes a few months to see the shift. But the magic of team coaching is the immediacy of the shift. You literally feel sometimes in a let's say two or three day off site, you feel the people that come as a group, but they live as a team. The level of cohesion, the level of trust, the level of strategic alignment, even the noise in the room shifts. At the beginning, it's all very polite and very nice. And at the end, the noise, the sound of the room is energized. There's almost like a like an electricity to it, and people are laughing and joking. The sound of the room changes, and that happens in three days. So to see that shift is pretty magical because it's quite immediate.

Everybody is engaged and fully, fully electrified. Yes. So one of the things I picked up from your book that coaching, you could say that is one of the top or maybe even number one leadership skills. We are working in very challenging environments, Luciana. I mean the healthcare, we know in the United States, 50 to 60 percent or even more doctors and healthcare professionals are burnt out or have signs of burnt out. I'm working in the UK. there's a huge, huge issue with stress. And 10 years earlier, almost a decade now, I came across this article in a medical journal which compared the healthcare to a boiling frog environment. A boiling frog environment is an environment which is slowly getting heated up because of the stresses, and the chronic stresses can be very dangerous. Now, going outside the healthcare, according to the Gallup studies, all around the world, 60 to 70 percent people are either loud quitting or quiet quitting. So it's not just only in healthcare, it's not only just in the United States or UK, it's the situation is all around the world. So when I read about the boiling frog model, what I've created something with the 10 years of my research is how do you convert this boiling frog into a jacuzzi? So that you have tempered down the heat in the temperature in the environment and now it's now it's comfortable. So I want you to speak to this. That why do you think coaching is one of the top leadership skills which is important today to transform us as employees or business owners or leaders?

You know, it's interesting, first of all, when I read your analogy of the boiling frog, it really resonated with what I experienced with my own clients as well, to the statistics that you were mentioning. I see this with the leaders that I work with in their teams all the time. And sometimes it's just not that the leader, you know, is incapable of leading with coaching, it's that they haven't taken the time to step back and think about how do I engage my people differently? How do I empower them? How do I take the time to be closer to them, to understand what motivates them, to be able to show up in a different way. So coaching creates the space in a way to have the environment go from the boiling frog environment to that jacuzzi environment, right? It's the ability for the coach and the client to step back and to look at things from a different perspective and take a little bit of distance from the here and now. And if you look at the old styles of leadership of command and control, where your boss was telling you exactly what to do and you better did it exactly as the boss expected, this is one of the reasons why the engagement is going down, is that especially the next generations really don't resonate with that model of leadership at all. And that's why we really advocate for coaching to become a much more prominent style of leadership because you know, millennials want to be coached, Gen Cs want to be coached, and coaching in a very simple definition is just simply a process that takes you from where you are to where you want to be. And the leader that is capable to take the time to develop their people so that they can grow into their potential is a leader that anybody will want to work with and for. It's a leader that is gonna create that engagement, that motivation, that sustainability, people that are coached and people that feel seen by their boss and they feel that the boss cares because they are putting skin in the game in coaching them, in developing them, they're gonna go to the end of the world in order to not only meet their performance goals and exceed them, but also to just have a great relationship with that leader. So we really advocate that coaching is part of that secret sauce to get that engagement and to get in that jacuzzi mode versus the boiling froat mode.

Very true. That the employees' needs are shifting. So when I saw that pie chart in the book, that money is only 20%, what people are today looking for is a sense of belonging at work. What people are people are looking for today is more flexibility. What they are looking for is living their purpose. And the way I see it is that when you are coming to work, because work is a significant part of a day, you want to fulfill all your six human needs. The need for certainty, because of course you're getting money, that is 20% of the equation, the need for variety, getting different kinds of experiences, the need for love and connection, the sense of belonging with your colleagues, the need for growth, the need for significance, and the biggest need is the need for contribution. So people want to fulfill their needs, but now that vehicle which is supposed to fulfill your needs is becoming a sinking ship which is causing burnout. If you see Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we are talking of the lowest rung there of you know proper sleep, energy levels, basic human needs are also being compromised. So I feel what you mentioned earlier that coaching helps us to take from A to B. In the boiling frog model, I've shared them that it takes them from the boiling frog environment to the jacuzzi. It's the right brain, right brain creates awareness, and the left brain is for execution. The first thing is that people think the challenges in the environment you are aware of it. And then you have the strategy to deal with it. So, first of all, I would like to I'd like you to share that how you have perceived this shift, and this is of course more amplified post-COVID. People are looking for hybrid models of working, they are wanting more flexibility. I would love to know your views on this, Luciana.

I think you know it's it's interesting how you build that connection between that basic pyramid of human needs with what's happening today in the workplace. And the link that we see between that context and coaching is actually pretty simple. Which is for you to know what motivates your people, you have to ask. Sometimes, because of the rhythm and the pace at which the modern business and modern organizations are going, people go into very transactional modes, right? What needs to be done, what's the task, what's the deliverable, and we forget to connect that at a human level. And at the end of the day, to your point, people want to be seen, people want to feel a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose. And that happens when your leader takes the time to slow down and ask, what is important to you? On that pie chart, you know, different people value different things more than others. And if you don't know, then you're driving blind. For some of the people in your team, flexibility is gonna be number one. And maybe recognition is less important because they are more of the low-profile type of person that is just happy to do good quality work, but they really want to be able to do it when they can do the work at their best, where they can do it at their best. Other people are gonna be very motivated by visibility, by recognition, by public praise. Other people want to work for something that is meaningful to them. So, with those people, you have to go into a coaching conversation to understand what is meaningful to them, what has purpose. Is it giving to others? Is it achieving certain goals? Is it progressing in their own sense of learning and development? This you can only achieve if you sit down and ask. So one of the core coaching competences that we take a lot of time to unpack in the book is asking powerful questions, is active listening. You can be a great coach and ask great questions, but if you're not really listening, then you're doing half of the work, right? So these two very simple things, asking good questions and building your active listening are fundamental for you to know what matters to your people. And then how can you, as a leader, create the conditions and the context for people to perform at their best? Because at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if you're in the healthcare environment, in an NGO, in a business, in all of these environments, we want to perform at our best and we want to feel rewarded and, like you said, a sense of meaning and belonging while we do that. So at the heart of that is start with a good coaching conversation, ask good questions and listen.

Absolutely. And I feel that living our own values at work is very important. You know, values, if our own values are served in the environment, and of course every organization has their values, and if an individual's values can be leveraged into the environment, into the organization, then it is a true synergy. It's a true win-win situation. So for employees to know their own top, let's say five, ten core values, and there's an exercise in your book, a very good exercise. I did it myself yesterday, to be aware of our own core values and then to see what are these environmental values. Now, with the environmental values, I would like to say one thing, and that will bring to my next discussion authentic leadership. But let's talk about the values and why it is so important for employees to know that the culture they are working in, what values are written on the wall, are actually being practiced on the ground. So I'd love to know your thoughts on that, Luciana.

First of all, I'm a big believer in leading through values, and like you said, I'm glad you did the exercise in the book because it's first of all really important that you know what your values are. But it's also really important, and we forget to do this to refresh what values are important to me right now. Because I promise you, if you did the exercise 10 years ago, I'm pretty sure that your values were going to be different than what they are now. And if you do it in five or ten years, they're gonna also be different. So, number one is know what's important to you, but refresh your values because we evolve in life and our circumstances evolve in life. So maybe at the beginning of our career, progress and growth and recognition are important, and later in our career, harmony and contribution and legacy are more important. Maybe down the road is much more about, you know, being commit a sense of community, a sense of belonging. So things shift. So having your values top of mind is key for you because values are, and I know you believe in this from what you shared with me, values are your compass. They point you in the right north, in the right direction. And when we feel a little bit lost, there's always times in life when we feel lost. That's the time to recalibrate your compass, to just remember and refresh what are those values, what's important to me. So that's number one is know yourself. Number two, in terms of what you talked about, the values in your context, in your organization. Companies and organizations have something in the wall that matters, but often they behave differently. But the first thing I will say is the moment when you have the most control over that value fit and that value alignment is at the beginning of choosing to work for an organization. This is a really powerful moment to test if your values are in alignment with the company values or the organization values. Whatever they have written in the wall, do they walk the talk? When you go and interview for these companies or these organizations, just test those values and say, give me an example of how I don't know, harmony is lived day to day. Or I have another company that has a very controversial value that is confrontation. They believe in confrontation because they think that friction takes the best out of people. So you want to pressure test how is that value being lived day to day? They might have a value of fairness or equality. So pressure test in your interviews. How do they really walk the talk on that value? Due diligence is really important in those moments. So also talk to people that have left that organization because they're gonna give you the scoop of are they really walking the talk on the values that they have at the door? So that's one moment of truth is before you join. But there will be, this is real life. There will be times where you feel something is off, and your values and the and the context values are not in harmony, they are not in synchrony. Maybe you get a new boss that is operating with personal values that are very different from the company values, and that's creating a sense of friction and a sense of discomfort and misalignment. So, what I typically coach my clients to do is go we go back to understanding which of your core values is under pressure now. What buttons is this situation pressing? And then how can your other values help you bring back a sense of harmony? So maybe for someone, fairness is a value that is important and that leader or that context feels unfair, but maybe that person also has a strong value of community, and maybe that community can help the person feel that okay, if within our community we bring back a sense of fairness or a sense of sharing the load together, because it's not fair that you're doing 10 hours of work and I'm only doing five. Okay, but how can you in your five push more of your fair share of the load so that we feel the community has pitched in? So this is an important moment where if one of your values is intentional the other values can help you bring it back into harmony because a little bit like the compass, right? What you're looking for is that equilibrium as well.

Does that help? Yeah, no, absolutely. And Luciana, what to what you said earlier, that if the employees perceive that the leaders or the bosses are not what they are pro not what they are saying, they are. I think the most important thing is do as you say. Do what you say and say what you do. So if that is not happening, the employees develop a cognitive dissonance that can cause a chronic low level stress. That's why it's very, very important to create. Create an authentic leadership and if that comes from top, it can make a lot of difference. But as we discussed earlier, that many times you there might be that mismatch, and then the employees need to be coached to have the skills that how you are going to maneuver that kind of a that kind of a situation.

Exactly, exactly. And hopefully the book will give your listeners some pointers into how to do that. But to your point, sometimes it's important that you voice out with within your system, with your boss, with your colleagues, the fact that you are feeling that tension, you're feeling that dissonance, and that the value that is being tested for you is this one. And then you put the fish on the table and you have a conversation around that. And that's where you have to bring courage in the mix because the easiest thing to do would be to say nothing, but it's not a sustainable strategy. Because to your point, that creates the boiling frog phenomenon, right? You start to heat up and you start to get frustrated, and at some point you're gonna blow up, you're not gonna sustain it anymore. So sometimes courage is better because I like us saying from Ben Brene Brown, which is you can have courage or you can have comfort, but you can't have both. And sometimes you have to choose courage over comfort and call the fact that I'm feeling you know, my fairness value is being tested at the moment and I don't feel this situation is fair. How can we together as a team bring back this into balance, into fairness because it's not sustainable or right for anyone? That takes a lot of courage to say, but only when you put that fish on the table is that you can address it. So and that is authentic leadership, right? Being able to be courageous and to say what needs to be said for you to create a shift. A big part of what coaching tries to do is to create a shift, to take you from where you are to where you need to be. And courage sometimes is the little enabler for that authenticity to be possible.

Very, very true. I would say two things to that, Luciana. One is maybe three years earlier, I was working in England, and I was doing great work, making a lot of presentations on leadership and coaching. One of the colleagues became jealous, and he, you know, kind of Machiavellian kind of behavior office politics and backstabbing and that kind of a thing, and that created micro-stresses, and that created micro-stresses at different levels. And I was performing very well, I was doing well, but then I thought this environment does not match with my values, and I just decided to make a move from there and go to Scotland, and so many of my colleagues, more than 10, requested me profusely that I should continue to stay. But I just felt a deep urge, you know, the authentic leadership that you got to make the plunge. If you are sitting in a comfortable jacuzzi, Luciana, it's good, but sometimes get out of the jacuzzi and take a cold plunge. I've been training for the marathon, I'll get done, get out of the jacuzzi and then I'll go to the cold plunge, which gives you a shock. You get out of your comfort zone is important. Getting out of the comfort zone is also important to understand that what is the new normal. Now coming back to the coming back to the jacuzzi, my friend Phil says that it is also important who is sitting with you in that jacuzzi. Some people will bring a very negative kind of energy, but some people, as you can see, the frogs in the jacuzzi here, they are having a coaching conversation. You can see self-care all around them mental, physical, emotional, spiritual self-care. They are having coaching conversations, they are not gossiping, they are just coaching conversations, they develop a growth mindset. How to when you go to work, of course, everything cannot be hunky-dory. So if challenges come to your way, you deal with them with a growth mindset, like with a problem. And I feel that is the only way to better engagement and empowerment. Because if you feel like even in if you see the weather in Scotland and Ireland, half the year it's going to be raining, so I cannot be complaining about the weather, otherwise, six months out of the year I will be in the complaining mode. So you prepare for the weather. In Russia, they say it's never too cold. You cannot rest well enough. When you go to work, there are challenges, you go with the problem-solving mindset. That's also important. I feel that kind of mindset to have a growth mindset is important as compared to a fixed mindset. So if you see these frogs, they're empowered frogs, they're having coaching conversations, and they are saying, How can we move forward? Now, how do we bring this concept more at a team level at a cultural level? Now it's not easy because you can imagine that the values of an organization are coming from the top, and sometimes even we see with the management and the clinicians, their values might jar. So, how do you create that synergy? Luciana, you are from South America, if I'm right. I used to do many, many years earlier, I used to do tango. Tango, there's a beautiful thing is that you lead and then you follow. You are a leader and then you are also a follower. So there is a general invitation and then you go with the flow. It's all about what you mentioned earlier, it's listening, it's listening and then taking the lead from there. So, what I want to know from you and learn from you, how do you kind of create a culture of coaching? How do you create that?

First, thanks for that wonderful intro and that metaphor of the of the tango, and there's a time to lead and there's a time to follow. But the first thing I'll say about creating a culture of coaching is it needs to start at the top, right? We it in our organization, the Preston Associates, we have companies come to us and say, Oh, we want to create a coaching culture, and but then they tell us, but start with the managers. But then we are like, well, but if the leaders at the top don't believe in coaching and they are not role models of coaching, it's to your point on cognitive dissonance. There's gonna be there's gonna be a cognitive dissonance. People are coaching each other, but the leaders are still in command and control mode, it's not gonna work. So the first key step for creating a coaching culture is it needs to be at all levels of the organization, even better if it starts from the top. Sometimes it starts from the middle, but it needs to travel up. And then everybody needs to develop at least the same fundamental language and the same fundamental understanding of coaching for this to be a culture. Otherwise, it's just a process. So everybody needs to live and breathe coaching as a mechanism, as a process, as a language. First secret. It needs to be in the organization, ideally starting at the top. Second key ingredient is take baby steps. You're not gonna be a master coach on day one. It starts with one framework, it starts with one conversation, it's it starts with one session. Maybe it even starts with a peer. We often do coaching programs in a company and we start with peer coaching before people coach their teams or even before someone coaches the level below or 360 coaching. We start with peers because it's a less threatening place, number one. And number two, it also helps break silos when the finance person is coaching the nursing person, and when the chief medical officer is coaching the chief marketing officer, there's real magic happening when you coach at a peer level as well. So second key step is start with baby steps because it travels. And then the third one is just repeat the course and celebrate the wins and see the shifts that happen in the organization when you can make it happen. In the book, we have one case study that is talking about a company that has built that coaching culture for 10 years. And still to this day, in that company, the people that participated in that coaching program, they still call us back to say that experience that was the most transformative experience of my entire leadership career. I now want that experience for my team. I want them to learn to coach. I want them to coach each other. I want them, I want them to coach their teams. So start at the top, take baby steps, but keep on celebrating those wins because when you see the shifts, pay attention to the shifts. Notice the shifts, but then celebrate the shifts because that creates that the virtual virtuous wheel that reinforces some of those things. And then it becomes the gift that keeps on giving.

Yes. Luciano, I completely agree about celebration. I think celebration is a flavor of gratitude. I feel that we need to create cultures where people say more thank yous, more expressing how the other person has contributed. And to me, the basic curtsy and politeness is the most important thing. So I really agree with you that all our successes, even small wins, should be celebrated, and really that can be that can go a very, very long way. So you see the frogs in the jacuzzi, they are sharing some empowering stories, and I think storytelling is really so important again to engage the right brain. In my book, I've got 21 stories. Each story is around 400 words, but they bring powerful concepts which emotionally you're able to connect emotionally, and I know you talk about emotional leadership. So I would love to share love to hear from you some personal experience if you could share with you why it is so important, why this aspect is really so important.

Well, it maybe I'll start with that personal experience, which is we have all sat through that 150 PowerPoint presentation. We all have, right? The person starts by saying, you know, thank you for having me. This is who I am, this is why I'm so smart, this is the topic that I will talk about, and then they go back to the background. By now it's 30 slides, and then they talk about this is the problem that we're experiencing, and these were the challenges, and by now it's 50 slides, kill me now, and then they're getting into so this is the solution that we think we have, and this is what we're trying to achieve. By now it's 110 slides, and everyone has lots lost the plot, and everyone's checking the time. So, linear storytelling, and especially in the world of business, is actually not necessarily your best friend. So the framework that we have in the book is a little bit counterintuitive, but we know from decades of working with leaders that it's actually really effective. And we call it the emotional leadership framework. The reason why we call it emotional leadership is that it's a framework that connects the head and the heart. And it's counterintuitive because we coach leaders to start at the end, actually. And start by defining what will success look like. Where do we want to get? And then go back to say, how will we get there? So define your version of success, describe the behaviors and the mindset that will be required to get you there, then talk about this. This is the opportunity, this is what we will do, and this is how we will know that we got there when we achieved success. Because when you tell the people where you're trying to go from the beginning, you hook them. They know where you're going right away. And actually, if you need to even use any slides, maybe you're gonna use three, four, or five, but you kept people interested from the first minute, and that's where you connect the head and the heart, because the heart is involved and the head wants to know, oh, but if you want to make one billion in two years, how are you gonna get there? So by flipping the storytelling, starting with the end in mind, you really connect and engage. And people, even if you give them less than you would have in the 150 slides, then they're gonna be so involved and so interested that they're gonna ask you questions and they're gonna want to have more details. And okay, but tell me more in that, you know, third phase of the project. I would love to zoom into how you will educate the new nurses, but people are with you versus you've lost them in the in the process. So that's a little bit of a trick that we use in the co in the in the book that we also coach the leaders that we work with to use the reverse and start with the end in mind for more effective storytelling.

That's very, very, very, very inspiring. Very inspiring. And I think Luciana, I know we are coming to the top of the hour. We have covered a lot of things, but your book is an ocean. There's so many other things I want to cover in terms of the managing the stakeholders' expectations and you know, with AI, where things are going. Now, AI in healthcare is also so big, and how kind of AI can be used to personalize, you know, also strategic thinking. There's so much more to cover. So I would I would look forward to having you in our next episode. But is there any top three to four nuggets? If I were to say, Luciana, last two decades of your coaching experience, of your coaching journey, just give us like top three to four nuggets to the listeners. What would you say?

I think that the first one is to remember that as leaders, we essentially have three gears, and they all have a moment in time to be. Sometimes we need to manage because we need to roll up the sleeves and do things. Sometimes we need to lead, we need to set the direction, show where we're going, establish the priorities. But the more you evolve in your leadership, the third gear is coaching. There's a time to manage, there's a time to lead, but there's definitely a time to coach, which is really that moment in which as a leader you have evolved to realize that it's no longer about you getting things done yourself, it's about getting things done through others. And that is the moment to start coaching. It's a little bit like the reflection of the teaching to fish versus giving them the fish. So the first nugget that I will have as a leader is just ask yourself, what does the situation require of me? Sometimes you need to go in management mode. There's in your space, especially doctors. There's a crisis, you are the specialist in charge, you are the surgeon, you're not gonna be coaching a beginner when someone is having an open wound or a heart attack, into that. You're gonna take charge and you're gonna manage. So ask yourself, what does the situation require of me? Sometimes there will be situations that will require leadership, but they're often more than you think will be situations where you will be best positioned to coach so that the person builds those capabilities for the long term. So that then you free up your own capability to put your value where you add the most value in the context. So that's one is ask yourself in which of the three gears do I need to be as a leader? The second thing that I will say is in terms of style, we also have choices for how we want to show up. And in the book, there's an equation called P equals C times A square that it's all about the attitudes. The A square is the attitude that you choose to have. So remember that you also have gears for how you want to show up. Maybe in that situation, you can be more the charmer than the fighter, because if you go into fighting mode, it's not gonna help you. Maybe in a certain environment you need to be the champion or the advocate. So you have choices of the manage lead and coach, but you also have choices of how you want to show up to be at you at the best. Because to your point, it's also part of the authenticity, right? The beauty is we all have many gears, but we get to choose how we show up. I hope those are some golden nuggets, maybe for your listeners to remember. Absolutely. I know we all know them, but sometimes we need to be reminded.

Well, let's put it like this: that common sense is not always common practice. And we need to reinforce these things, these concepts again and again. Well, Luciana, it's been a really, really empowering conversation with you, very inspiring. And one last thing, one last thing, Luciana. If the listeners want to reach out to you, what would be the best way?

They can feel free to reach out to me via LinkedIn. I try to be a good LinkedIn citizen, accept my connections, get into a conversation. They can check out our website, www.theprestonassociates.com, where you can see our different frameworks. And if they want to get the book, it's available on Amazon or anywhere you get your books.

You can you can I will put the link to the book, and it's really a very, very, very empowering book. I've got my copy sitting here, right? And I will continue this conversation with you. And like in Ireland, we say, until we meet again.

Thank you, Dr Ash. My pleasure until we meet again.

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