Building Success Without Sacrifice: Leadership, Balance & Reinvention with Tanya Cross

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Transforming Stress with Dr Ash podcast. And I'm really excited today to have Tanya Cross from Down Under, right from Sydney, Australia. And Tanya is an executive coach. She's a master certified Di Martini facilitator, and she's helped her she's helped tens of thousands of people around the world who are struggling with burnout, who are struggling with identity crisis. So please help me welcome Tanya Cross. Tanya, I'm really excited to have you on the show. And you and me met maybe more than five years back on a D Martini program. And I know you have been passionate about personal growth and personal development. And I really want to hear your journey and share your amazing wisdom with the listen listeners, which are all around the world, 53 countries. So welcome, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Ash. Thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to this topic. It's going to be a very inspiring journey to learn about the self and learn about people's identity and to see people's transformation. It's one of the things that I have loved the most is being able to see someone grow and transform and to shift their perceptions and to see that there's other possibilities with their life that don't have to hold on to the same baggage that they've had for a long time and that we can we can change.

So Dania, what inspired you to do this work?

So I always I remember when in my early days in my 20s, I remember feeling like sometimes we look to the outside to make changes. We might take food or we might have medicine in order to make those changes, and then I realized that the greatest change we can make is internal, and so I went and started studying counselling, so I was doing my degree, and while I was studying, I was in my last year of my of my training, and I was studying crisis counselling, and in that subject, the lecturer was telling us that you're gonna have, if you're going to experience grief, between two and five year journey to be able to come out the other side and not necessarily get your life back again because it'll never be the same again, but you'll come out and you'll start to have some new normal. And so at that time, I was dating someone and then he was killed, and so I had never experienced grief before. I was 27 years old and just my head was jelly, I couldn't remember where I'd park my car when I had to go shopping, I was crying all the time, and I happened to go and go interstate and spend some time with some friends, and while I was there, I met the housemaid of someone, and she said, Tanya, you have to go to the breakthrough experience. And she said it with such certainty. I found myself in Sydney in 2009. I attended my first program with Dr. Di Martini, and I it's a two-day program, personal development, and it's not that type of rah-rah personal development program, it's one that you sit down, you have to do a lot of inner work. And so on the second day, there's 210 people in the room, and Dr. Di Martini asks, Is anyone grieving? I didn't know, I didn't know that was going to happen. I just I put my hand up and I said, I you know, my boyfriend died three less than a little bit less than three months ago. Some other people put their hand up. One lady put her hand up and said, I lost a baby recently when she was pregnant. and a couple of other people put their hand up, and then the room votes. So the 210 people in the room voted and they voted for me. So I had the privilege of going up on stage with Dr. Di Martini, and I sat down on a chair, microphone in hand, and Di Martini asks me four questions, and we spent time an hour and 20 minutes, and he just repeated these four questions to me. And by the end of the hour and 20 minutes, I was no longer grieving. I had a full heart for my for my boyfriend. I had a full heart for his life and his death, and I had gratitude for the experience. And I know that's hard to comprehend, especially even for me when I was in this state of feeling like I've got two to five years before I'm going to come out the other side feeling, you know, normal, like feeling normal, whatever normal is. And here I am in an hour and 20 minutes. I am grateful, like heart open, grateful. And I felt like in that moment, if he's able to help me in an hour and 20 minutes, I this is what I want to dedicate my life to. Like I was so moved that someone had spent time creating this methodology that could transform someone's life and also transform, you know, all the people that I got to touch as a result from that moment onwards. I felt like he gave my life back, and I felt like that's what I want to dedicate my life to. That was really the beginning of my journey. And so then when I do something, I don't do it half. I'm not like a little pinky toe in, I'm like all in when I do something. So I've spent the last well, that's 17 years now, 16 years in practice, but 17 years in this work using and applying the Di Martini method because I feel it's so transformative and it makes a difference on so many different aspects of someone's life. So that's why, and that's how.

Tanya, you mentioned the breakthrough experience for the benefits of the listeners. Could you just give a background of the breakthrough experience, what it is?

Sure, it's two days. So Dr. Di Martini is a human behavior specialist, so he has spent many, many decades of his life studying human behavior and looking at it from lots of different angles, from looking at from society to chemistry to philosophy to religion, and seeing how there's a way that you can apply a series of questions that can help resolve any dynamic that you have. So it's never what happens to you, but how you perceive it. And so it gives you a framework and a series of questions to be able to shift that perception that you have so that you can feel different. That I call it get on path and purpose because when we're clouded by emotion, we're clouded by judgment, we find we're either making decisions to avoid something or seek something. And so this gives you a the most objective view of your life and what's most important to you, and as a result of that, we can be on path and purpose. And so it's two days. I studied counseling, so I spent three years at uni. I happened to go over to Charlottown to do one of my placements over there to study and to do my placement under a psychologist. So I traveled far and wide in order to get my degree, and in two days, I learned more about human behavior and about the mind than I did in my entire degree. So that's saying something. And so it's it's revolutionary, the process. It really gives you the opportunity to, if you, if you love doing introspection and you love having a deep dive into your own mind and having the power to change your life, then it's the perfect program to attend.

Thank you for that, Taniana. I have I have to say that we met at a D Martini program, and I have to really praise you and congratulate you that you have simplified the work and made it much more easier to understand. Really awesome work you have done, and I've always been very inspired by you with the work you have done. So one of the things the program, at least that's my understanding and my experience as well, that decades of psychotherapy and the weekend program can shift your perceptions. Can you just speak to speak to this a little bit more?

Yes, so if I if I remember when I was really little and my dad was a heavy drinker, so he'd drink from 10am in the morning and drink most days if he wasn't if he wasn't working, for example. And you know, like anything, when you go through a challenge and a and a and experiences, my biological mum left, and so that made him drink a little bit more as a result, but then one day he woke up and he's he said, I've got to change, and so he ended went into rehab. When he went into rehab, he then did alcoholic anonymous. And so I didn't see my dad for a little while he was in rehab, and then when he came out, I got my dad for the first time. Like I got I got my dad present with me, and it his life completely changed. So it was like the first time that I've I've witnessed someone go and do a personal development program, which Alcoholic Anonymous is a development program. You get to learn about yourself and you get to learn about your behavior and how that impacts others and making different choices. And so I was able to see from a really young age the ability that a program has, not just on the individual's lives that go into that program, but also like for me in my life, and I know my brother can also say this as well like our lives change. We got a present father, we got someone who was emotionally and physically there for us because of that program. So the breakthrough experience, although it's not anywhere near, it's not even close to what alcoholic anonymous is, but it's still a revolutionary program that changes lives. But at the end of the day, every program, no matter what program you attend, it's really the work that you're prepared to do to show up. It's not something, a magic pill that someone can give you and it can change. Like you have to do the work. You can't have someone else answer the questions for you. You can't have someone dig deep into your mind and find the answers. Like you have to do the heavy lifting in it. But the breakthrough experience is really beautiful as a way to learn a different way of thinking because often our thinking, it's it's not that we, you know, our thinking is we have to sometimes unlearn the things that we've learned. And it's not necessarily the things that we've learned that are maybe they're the things that are filtering our life and we're living our life in the way that is maybe not the wisest for us. And so we have to unlearn some of those things. But how do you do that? How do you how do you unlearn some of your behaviors? How do you unlearn some of your actions? How do you unlearn things that are not necessarily working for you? And so the process is really beautiful to be able to help you to change the wiring in your brain so that you can feel different about yourself, you can make different decisions and choices in your life, and then get a different result as a result.

But to unlearn, many people first have to have that awareness that they want to they want to shift things. But what we see is that there are highly successful individuals, professionals, high achievers, and they come to a point in their life that they are burnt out, or but they do not have the awareness. So what would be the starting point for them?

It's really it's a really interesting question because you can't make someone aware of something that they're not ready to be aware of. I feel like awareness is something you it has to come from internal. Like you can have and have lots of information out there, but if your eyes aren't open to be able to see it and take it in and be ready to take it in, then there's nothing anyone can do. It's like you can't, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it the horse drink unless it's ready to. I know that when it comes to burnout, for example, or high achievers work so hard. And I see it often with the clients I work with that they have worked so hard. They have studied, you know, sometimes over a decade of what of time, they have put effort and energy into what their career is now. And so that almost like tunnel vision on that on their career, it's then really hard to for some people to then go, man, if I become more aware and then things start to change, and then what happens if all that work in their perception, then maybe it wasn't what was it for? And maybe I want to be over on some other mountain, they've been climbing this mountain for so long and they've got to some kind of peak, and then they see, actually, I think I need to be on that mountain over there. And now it's like, how do we get there? And so an awareness is they want to stay close to that because if they're close to that, then that journey over there is less daunting, and they have to just they just keep on trugging along with what they're doing. And so awareness really comes to that point where a high achiever has really come to that point where they're like, I'm now ready to make that change. I know it's gonna be difficult, I know it's gonna be tough, but if they want to be in another mountain, then they're they have to be ready to do all the work that it's gonna take to maneuver and pivot to get over there. So I feel like awareness is like an inner job. I feel like you can't make someone do that, it has to come from within.

So is it let me just kind of reframe this. So they come to a point when it is hurting, hurting too much, and it is in spite of having everything, and what we can say that they have come into a psychological dead zone, and now with what else now? So that starts with an inner searching of some form, and that increases the awareness, and that could be a starting point.

For sure. I a pain is a great way that builds up, you know, pain's a great feedback mechanism, builds up inside, it might be a physiological pain, it might be that feeling of like emptiness inside, but it also might be pain from the outside because they keep on getting, I don't know, criticism or they get something challenging from the outside that makes them become more aware and feel like I need something needs to change. Our body's a great feedback mechanism if we're listening to it, give us feedback to say whether we're in on path or purpose or whether we've we've we've kind of drifted away or what we have been doing is no longer meaningful to us. Can you give some example of that? Sure. So our vitality, how if we're on purpose and we're on path, we think about times we've been like that. We have an immense amount of energy that runs through us. We can feel like sometimes we even try to go to sleep, but our brain's like so inspired we can't go to sleep. So I'm sure everyone's had moments like that. And we've maybe also had moments where that we just know that our cup is really, really empty. And so, which also means that we've we're not living according to what's really truly meaningful for us, and we're gonna feel flat, we're gonna feel de-energized, and we're gonna feel like our vitality is being like drained or sucked out. And so it's in the form of tired, feeling like nothing can kind of really build up your energy again. So I think energy is a really great feedback to say how aligned you are with your yourself and your life, and whether there's like congruence between that. Because I really truly believe that sometimes with high achievers, they've the alignment's been, they've built been building something, they've been studying, they've been working really hard, and there's been a level of an alignment. but they've probably been focused on some things like success. It's a really big one. I want to be successful, whatever success looks like. Some people it's cars and stuff, some people it's titles and accolades, some people's it's you know, it's it everyone's everyone's a little bit different. But they get to that peak of their mountain and they climb really hard and they get to that success peak, and then they turn around and like, what was it, what was it all for? And so when they come to that point, they had vitality the whole way because it was really driving them. They had that kind of carrot at the end, this is what I wanted, and they got that carrot at the end, then they're like, So then their vitality drops because then they realize, hang on, was this really what I wanted? And is this the thing that is most meaningful? And so what I noticed sometimes, just in development, because people are having families or I the people, I don't know, sometimes I've seen with someone, one of their parents who was a big driver in why they did what they did, they passed. And so then they're like, hang on, what do I really want now? And so people have different reasons they're driven. And so once they, once they get to that point and they feel like, what am I here for? If their vitality drops or the reason why they were doing what they were doing disappears, then that then they're having to recalibrate because they've built this life up on this version of themselves that was driving them. And now they're stuck in this life, their accolades, their career, their business, whatever the thing that is they've built. And then they're stuck and they're like, oh man, how do I continue to drive this? Sometimes people call it feeding the beast if they've got a large company. It's like, how do I keep on feeding this beast when I don't want to be this individual anymore? I want to be a different individual. And so the vitality's dropped. And so they're like, now I want to be on that mountain, but now I'm here. And so then it's like, how do I, how do I change my whole business, my whole life, my whole career, everything that I've been studying, working for, sacrifice for? How do I get on that mountain when that one feels like that's the one I'd love to be in, or like, you know, completely get off the mountain and go and swim in the river and do something completely different. But how do I do that? And so their body is giving great feedback to show them that their vitality is gone and then maybe this isn't aligned with who they are anymore. And sometimes then making that transition can be really difficult, which is then how people feel they end up getting, say, burnt out because they're they stay stuck too long on a mountain they don't want to be on anymore.

So I've seen that you mentioned the term identity lag rather than rather than burnout. So you mean feel you mean that they have they have outgrown their previous identity.

So they've so how I see it is, I mean, burnout is it's the people have burnout. So I also see it as like an extra nuance of it. And so I see that they're they're business in their life, so they have this career that they've built, and they have all these expectations on them to you know maintain the business, to bring in money, to keep on serving, to keep on delivering, and their life is here. And then internally they've become aware, they've realized, actually, I want something different. It might be I want to spend time more with family, as much as growing a business. Maybe it's that business isn't as important to me anymore, and I want to do another business, and that's more I've got a particular person in mind, and they're like they want to do more of a their own business, which has to do with like environmentally friendly business, let's call it that. And so they want to make that jump from currently being finances, and so it's like, how do I make that jump? And so then there's this identity lag. It's like they know that their new identity needs to be over here, or their new set of values and priorities, which is going to be inspiring for them, are over here, but they're currently stuck here, and there's a lot of expectations and a lot of requirements they have to, they can't just drop everything. It would be so great if we could drop everything and just quit and then just go over here, but they can't because there's there's a lot like it's like moving a tanker ship for some people in their life. It's like, how do you do that? And so it's a gradual change, and so there sometimes is an identity la identity lag between where they want to go and where they are in this moment, and so then that which can give the feeling of burnout.

Tanya, what like you mentioned that they are on this peak of the mountain, and then suddenly they realize that they are not fulfilled and they want to climb another mountain, or we can call it the second. Innings and second evolution. What is the process for that?

So awareness definitely starts with you've got to know what you want because it's hard to make that transition and shift to where you want to go. One of the things that I can really appreciate is when we know our values, and our values are what we get most inspired by. When we're really clear on what our values are, and that's not necessarily integrity, you know, in the traditional sense of values. It's what Dr. Di Martini described as a value determination process, which helps you to define them. But essentially it's it's things like children. One of the biggest ones I see often is people want to have a family, and they want to have a family and their values line up with their family, but they're working 90-hour weeks. It's like, well, how do you make that transition? And so one is you have to first of all understand who you are and what is truly important to you because it's hard to move to something if you don't know what it is you're moving to. And so then we have to look at first of all, is it are you moving because you really find that's the most inspired place, or are you moving because it's too painful here? So we you kind of got to check first, because if some people are building a business or they're you know building their career and it's painful, and they think if I go and work and hang out with my kids more, maybe that'll be more pleasurable. Well, you're gonna you've got to choose your pain. There's always gonna be pain in some way, shape, or form. And so you want to first of all understand what's your motivation. Is it because this is just too this is out of alignment, or is it because it's just too difficult? If it's too difficult trying to move to something that's easy, probably not the wisest because you're gonna find pain wherever you go. Or if it really feels like it's out of alignment, then you've got to start to work out how do you shift. And I can't that I don't, there's not a specific, you know, step-by-step, pain by numbers experience to get there because every person and every individual is so different. but it's essentially being able to dissolve the reasons why you're stuck in this dynamic in the first place. Some people, for example, love the accolades and the recognition that they get, and they get a lot of recognition being at this peak. And so then if I step out, and I've had this before when someone's like, I'm if I just step out and just and I'm I'm a mum sometimes or I'm a dad sometimes, what would that mean? Well, what would people have judgment on that if I'm spending more time with my kids? And so being able to dissolve the, in a way, persona that someone has around that recognition and all the accolades and dissolve that and then love and appreciate this version that you're feeling pulled to, then being able to do that can be really helpful and wise for some people. But it's really it's not like a it's not like a cookie cutter of the same thing for everyone, it's it's different, different people have different dynamics, but it's really trying to get into the nitty-gritty of like what's keeping you in that dynamic, in the that peak in the first place. and then once you know that to dissolve whatever the dynamic is going on, and then find a deeper reason to move. Because when we have a deep reason to move, we can move heaven and earth because it's meaningful to us.

Very true, very true. Thank you so much for clarifying that, Tanya. So, as we were discussing earlier, that we see people who are successful in all the realms and in any kind of worldly sense, but many times that comes with a personal price. Also, in a social situation, they are wearing a mask many times whilst they are many times incongruent with their truest values. Now what we can say that we are paying a price for a public victory with a private decay because it is still not fulfilling, because all the worldly success has still not brought us inner fulfillment of joy, and we know that people at the peaks of their career having problems with addiction, self-destructive behaviors, whereas if one would say that they are leading a fulfilling life, that should not have been the case. Would you agree with that?

I would agree, definitely. Like fulfillment is I see it like we have wants, and I see it like a cup, and the there's holes in the bottom of the cup. So wants are, you know, as much as you pour what you want in, they just keep on emptying out because you keep on getting what you want, and then you need more, and it's never fulfilling enough. But fulfillment is something that as you start to feel it internally, it expands and it grows, and you feel it more and more, and it feels like the cup is as big and it just keeps on bigger and you keep on getting fulfilled and it's expansive. And so there's a very big difference. What happens though, if we are stuck in a life that is unfulfilling, and we can end up creating a public and private persona. So the public persona, because we've got a mask of everything's okay and I'm loving this and I want I want your business and I want you to keep on coming to me and I want this, but internally, and maybe to your spouse or your close people and your close inner circle, maybe not even anyone, is internally you know that's a different story. Internally, you know the internal you know conversation that you're having internally is like, I don't like this, how do I get out? This isn't inspiring, I don't want to be here. And so there becomes this split between who the public sees you as and who you are privately. And the greater the split we have, then the greater incongruence there is within us. And we'll end up because we naturally want to be in alignment with ourselves. We naturally want our life to be in alignment with ourselves and ourselves to be in alignment. And so what will happen is we will get external pressure and feedback, or a body will give us feedback to get us into alignment. So that's where we have car accidents or massive challenges. I see I'm a part of a community at the moment, and one of the one of the individuals is getting a massive challenge in their business at the moment, and so just you know, public slamming at the moment. And so there's this challenge, this outside challenge to get people to get into alignment because challenge has a tendency to do that. And so the more we can I would say minimize because not quite the word I'm looking for, but like the more we can like make that public, a public and persona, a public persona and a private persona the same. And so there's no difference. It's like who you are, like if we meet in person and you hang out with me when I'm with my daughter and my partner and my family, it's like who I am here is the same when I'm here, when I'm having a conversation with you, when I'm when I'm with in a big group, it's the same. And so we want that congruence with ourselves, and so the more we can work on doing that, that's why I love doing introspection, is because it gives you the opportunity to really reflect on your life and say, am I showing up in the best way possible that feels the most aligned for me? And we have to work at it. It isn't something that just naturally kind of births out of us and we just naturally feel like sometimes we have to do work, it's like, hang on, why am I doing this? I still remember years ago when I was a vegetarian, years and years ago, I still remember a time where I went on a date. I was in my 20s, so it was a long time ago, and I went on a date, and I all my friends know me as a vegetarian at the time, and you couldn't sway me, but I went on a date. And when I went on this date, he said, let's go to a sushi restaurant. So we went to a sushi bar and we sat at the at the at the thing at the table at the bench and he and he said I'll order and he ordered sushimi. Sushimi came out and I was like, Oh my god, I'm gonna have to eat this. So I ate it. I ate it to impress this guy, and I was like, oh my gosh, this like public kind of persona that I have and this private kind of done dynamic. I'm like, I remember leaving, going, I can't believe I like lost my sense of self for this person. But people do it all the time. They do it in their careers because someone says, I need you to do this, and you're like, I don't want to do this, it's gonna cost me too much time. Or then you just say yes anyway. You might be in a career that requires an immense amount of hours, but you don't want to do that, but you say yes anyway. You say you want to go on a holiday, but instead of saying yes, someone says, Can you do some work? And you like say yes again. And so we just end up saying yes to a lot of things. And that result, then our internal life versus our external life is different. And so we have to work at and spend time unpacking when we sometimes it's easier to do in retrospection when you look back and go, Why did I even do that? So I go back and I go back to the time where I ate sushimi and I realized I really wanted a relationship. And I was kind of prepared to do whatever I had to do in order to get a relationship. Then I was like, this is not gonna work because I'm not being my authentic self in that relationship. So we have to go back and have a look at like why are we saying yes to people when we want to say no? Why are we why are we stuck in a business when we don't want to be? And we have to unpack those things and really deep dive into them because if you don't understand, it's and that awareness, you're not gonna be able to make the change. So hopefully that deeper dive into people's understanding of why they make the decisions will help them to be able to bridge that gap between their private persona and their public persona.

Very, very insightful, I would say that Tanya. And so common saying yes to everybody and saying no, no, no to yourself, because when you are saying yes and being a yes man, and it is jarring with our own sometimes jarring with our own innermost values, we are saying no to ourselves.

100%. Like, and that might be because people love to be needed or they want to be valued and wanted or they want to receive the accolades of saying yes, and so people have to do a deep dive into like what's the intention behind why you keep on saying yes, but it is so true. Every yes to someone else is a no to you, and it's like how much how many no's are you gonna hear before you have to start going, hang on, I'm gonna say yes to me? Like what and what is that yes?

So again we come back to awareness. So one thing is that when you are saying yes to others, whereas you don't feel comfortable, so part of it is seeking that validation, seeking that approval from others, and partly it also might be a lack of awareness of what is our own our own highest values and what is it which is most truly important to us.

Yeah, I mean, we high I really feel like if you're on a personal development journey, that's sometimes it's difficult to find what your true values are when we're like when there's all this haze around us, all this expectation, all the thing, the people that the person that the individual you think you should be is interfering with the truth of who you tr who you are. And so sometimes we have to do inner work and we have to do some introspection to clear that cloudiness so that we can get clear with what it is that's really important and what who we truly are. And so sometimes it's hard to know what your highest values are and what you're most inspired to do and what your say your career is going to look like is because all this cloudy, misty stuff in front of you and these emotional charges are preventing that the truth of what's most important to you. So that's why I really believe that if someone you know is knowing that they're getting great feedback inside of their body, the outside world is giving them feedback. I really truly believe going on a personal development journey, finding a coach, finding someone that can deep dive into your into your mind and help you dissolve some of those emotional charges and the reasons why you do it is a great opportunity for people because then I at once they've gone through that, then they can start to ask, okay, what is really important now? Because that's not clouding them anymore, and they can make a more objective view of what is meaningful to them.

Thank you, Tanya. So, you know, coming back to what we discussed earlier, wanting to make the transition, and you know, you and me we met when we met, I was in my own journey, if you remember, and have since come a very long way. So I think it would be a good way to demonstrate to our listeners that how to how to clarify what your values are, how you can make those shifts and transitions, what kind of support might be might be helpful.

For sure. Like I remember when we first met and you were practicing medicine, and I could I there was what felt like, and please tell me if I you know it's it's you know it's your story, but from what I remember was that you had a calling inside of you to do something more and something bigger than sitting in an office and just being able to you know impact the individual that was coming in to see you. And so what it what it what it from the outside in looked like that there was a voice in your head that was calling louder and louder to say, I want to go do and there was a pull towards this. And so there was there was you wanted to make some kind of change. And I think people do get that when they just know that inner voice is getting louder and louder and louder until the outside voices are like they drown out because your inner voice is so loud. And so what I noticed with you is you were dedicated to making that change, even though it was tough. I remember I remember moments we had conversations on the phone where you're like, and it's like you it was it's tough. It's not gonna, it's not meant to be easy, but it's also worthwhile, as you would know now coming out the other side. You sometimes have to hold the vision and like trust the process that you get there and keep on doing the work that gets you there and the growth that it takes to get you there. Because what I see is like this phoenix rising moment where you have to kind of burn sometimes to the ground because you can't, you're burning, you know, a dynamic that you had before and kind of really like stepping up and creating this new version of yourself. And so that's what I love about human behavior and people is that the ability to kind of create a new version of yourself, and then there's another version of you after this. And so I think the thing that really makes a really big difference is if you've got that inner voice inside of you that is calling, that I think people give up because as soon as something gets challenging and hard, I think sometimes it dampens their confidence. And so sometimes you have to be able to see beyond the challenges and know that there are challenges that are going to happen and it's part of the journey, and it's you know, character building and all of that, but you have to hold on to the vision of what you're wanting to create and trust that there's a process in that.

Yes, Tana, you remember very correctly, and I would love to have more detailed discussion about that. You know, one of the things we in as in medicine struggle to outgrow is the identity. The identity of being a doctor is very strong, and it's a great identity. I've been I've lived it for 25 plus years now. Still working as a full-time physician, I feel it is very satisfying and but what was also happening, because there you know the environment, there are so many things which are not in our control, what we call the boiling frog environment, which is full of chronic which are full of stresses. So, how do you can continuously reframe and manage both the polarities? Because if there if there are the boy boiling frog stresses, there are equal and opposite challenging factors. So an inner calling in me came to do something, build on what I have already built now to serve much, many, many more people around the world.

So if we if we're gonna we're gonna go all the way back to your childhood and to anyone who's listening back to your childhood, which you know, when if we look at being a doctor, you would have got so much praise and accolade. No one says that's just that's not a very good profession to be a part of, and why would you want to, you know, like most people throughout your whole life have put on a pedestal being a doctor and built it up. Doctor or a lawyer, and so build up this profession. And so you then in your in your conscious and unconscious minds have put on this idea then when you get into medicine that it's such a great career and it's such prestige and you've worked so hard to it, and you know, it's it's it's a very important job in and career choice in society. And so you've got that lens of the world as you step into your career, but then you have the crashing down of then realizing it's pretty hard. They work you really, you work really hard, you've got a lot of responsibility, you've got the dynamics that happen inside of hospitals and that are interesting, showing the politics. And so you've got all of these extra dynamics at play, and you but you've been told your whole life the prestige of this job, but no one's told you the reality of the politics, the responsibility, the pressures, the life and death decisions that you're making, the you have to know it, and sometimes you know like you it's it's immense, and so no one tells you that. So then they haven't prepared you for really the reality of what you're about to step into. And so then you step into this, and then you have that, and you have these external pressures, and so when we are perceiving a lot of pressure and the external, we will feel like we are we are challenged. But what we what there is, is you can never have that amount of pressure without having the support behind you as well or with you. And so when we, if we look at our whole life, if we get really lopsided and we just look at the pressure, the boiling frog experience, and we look at all of that pressure's on top of us, and we look at all the challenging in the politics, and we look at all the dynamics that are creating pressure, because everyone's pressure is going to be different. And so some people this the hours, you know, without having a lunch break, and as everyone's different. And so those pressures, if we don't also see where do we also equally get just as much support and just as much you know that it's in it's it's supportive of what we're doing, if we don't see both sides, then we're gonna feel that pressure. And so our ability to be able to widen our perspective and see where is there support and challenge in what we do in the in the dynamic in the hospital system, where are people supporting you and where are they challenging you? You know, when you're having to make decisions, where's there's support and where there's challenge? And so the more we can broaden that perspective, then the more then when instead of thinking we're in a pot and it's slowly boiling, we don't even see the pot and we don't even see the water because we just see support and challenge.

We are able to integrate both the factors, both the factors. Yeah, yeah, and I've been and I've been able to do it. We've been able to do it, and what I call it as a jacuzzi effect. Because then your perception of the water becoming hot because you are able to neutralize it with equal and opposite factors which are also present in the environment, like joy, like gratitude, creating meaning, helping others, contribution, growth, all those factors are also in abundance in the in the same environment.

For sure. It's never what happens to you, but it's your perception of it. And so you can perceive you're in a jacuzzi, or you can perceive you're in a cold plunge if you like cold plunges and you get a lot of value out of that. Or if you perceive that you're in a in a in a boiling a boiling pot, that's all your it's all up to that's all on you. It's not someone else forcing you to think that and feel that. That's that's on you.

Thank you, Tanya. Tanya, we've had a really enriching discussion. we are coming to the top of the hour. I want to ask you one more question that for listeners who are who are on the show, that if people are feeling stuck, if they are feeling that they are in that psychological dead zone, if they are feeling that they have come to the end of the road where they are feeling very confused and the life doesn't feel fulfilling, what should be the first starting point or one simple action they can take?

Sure. One thing is they have to ask why are they in this position in the first place? So comes back to the beginning of our conversation around awareness is you want to understand why you're stuck in this in the first place or why you're in this position. So one of the ways that we can do that is we ask a question is what is the benefit of my circumstances right now? And that's not to stack up, let me keep that, and I ask what's the benefit, what's the benefit to keep you stuck in that. It's really to, as we find the benefits and we find where we're in this position, we don't want to be it anymore, and we ask, well, how is this serving me spiritually? How is it serving me mentally? How is it serving me in my work? What's going to happen is you're going to get great content to why you're in that position in the first place. And so with that content, it might be because you get paid really well. Okay. So the so obviously being financially rewarded for what you do is valuable to you and important to you. And maybe that's you need to have something else if you're going to move to that to know that's also going to be lucrative for you. So that's that's important. Maybe it's because you've got a family obligation because your family has really wanted you to study and they've maybe invested you with you and helped you on the journey. And so now you feel obligated in a way to continue this journey because of them. And so the result of that is okay, so how do we maneuver and shift out of that? If it's because the society around you put you up on a pedestal and think you're amazing because you're you're a doctor or you're you're you own your own business or whatever the dynamic is, it's like, how do you then make that transition and go, well, let go of that? It's like, I because one of the best things we can do is you're not your job title. You know, you're not, you know, I've seen people who have they hit one of my clients had $10 million company that went into receivership. And so he his whole identity was wrapped around with everything that had to do with money, all the house that he lived in, the car that he drived, the amount that his business was worth, the income that is coming to people that he socialized with. And when that got ripped out from him, it's like, who am I? Like, who am I underneath all of this? I think that's what we have to really truly discover, is because when we can know who we are beyond our title, beyond what we do for our business and our career, and we discover that it's the most meaningful thing that we can do in our life. But we have to be able to move beyond our titles and our accolades and our experience that we have to be able to say this is who I truly am. And you can take all that away from me, and it's not gonna change who I am. Like being a doctor, if you had your you know, your medical license taken away from you, it's like, will you still be you or would you, would you not? And so I think when we ask that question, so we go back to that question, what's the benefit, benefit, benefit? It's gonna reveal a lot to you. So I'd say that's the best thing someone can do to understand who they are and what's really meaningful. We have to first look at and assess where we're at right now. And how do they do that? so if they just they just get a piece of paper out, ask the question, what's the benefit right now? They'd look at what's the benefit spiritually, mentally, vocationally, financially, physically, within your family, socially. And you just keep on asking in those areas what else is the benefit? What else is the benefit of where I'm at right now? What else is the benefit? And you might have to find, I don't know, 10 in each. That's like 70 reasons why you're in what you're at in. And when they look at that list, what's going to happen is there's gonna be a couple of things that really jump out for you. And so then they're essentially the thing that you need to work on. Is it how do I then dissolve or shift or change those points that we like I just talked about, in order for me to make that transition and to detangle from where I'm at to move to where I'd love to be.

Thank you, Tanya. That is that's a very helpful strategy, and I'm sure it will benefit and give a lot of insights to people. Now, if anybody wants to learn more about your work, Tanya, the inspiring work you have done, what is the best way to reach out to you?

Sure. so the best way is you'll see my name here, Tanya Cross. and you can find me at tanyacross.com. You can just send me a message on my website and reach out. We can have a conversation and see how I can help.

Thank you, Tanya. It's been a really joyful conversation with you. And I hope we will continue to climb newer mountains in our life and be aware and also be in gratitude of what we have done so far and how far we have come. And with that same gratitude and learning, try to scale new mountains. And thank you so much for sharing the incredible insights and from coming from Sydney, and I look forward to having more sessions with you in the future. Thank you so much for joining me at Transport Mixed Race with Dr Ash.

Thank you, Ash. Thanks for having me.

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